Reflections and thoughts on "P" (1 Viewer)

[BLReed]

Actually, it's not. The difference between King & Country's overhead, compared to a company's like TG, is huge. That is why TG can sell cheaper than K & C. When you sell no more than 100 sets of an item and the catalogue is not as deep as K & C's, you can afford to sell at a lower price and draw off sales.

Hmm, I guess Adam Smith was wrong too........."economies of scale are the cost advantages that enterprises obtain due to size, with cost per unit of output generally decreasing with increasing scale as fixed costs are spread out over more units of output. Often operational efficiency is also greater with increasing scale, leading to lower variable cost as well.

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

That the Same for all the company's

I realize that too, but everyone seems to be fixated on what 16 year olds in china are earning painting figures.

 

[jazzeum]

Well, thanks for the economics lesson. Adam Smith is one thing, modern finance another. Regardless, I see a lot of people giving Andy financial advice and how he should do this or that and price his products. None of us know his business, his costs, the economics, etc. We may think we do but we don't. As such, I'm not prepared to give him advice on how to price things.

 

[Mitch]

Brad...

We all understand that the companies have a overhead and are in this to make a profit nobody cares about that. The same old stuff is always spouted out about rising costs and this and that but, how can this seemingly affect only K&C month in month out the prices are creeping up. I have people speak with me asking what is different with this company compared to others. Hawkeye was talking about pay etc for painters and, I remember a comment from Brian from Collectors Showcase a while back when this subject was raised and he said that costs were not as high as some made out.

They are however nothing to do with this issue as last month figures were £41/44 and this month most still are apart from two ranges so, its got nothing to do with business overheads and all the rest that are regularly sounded off as immediate responses. If this was the reason all figures would have went up.

Terry the other day said we were going off track by looking at other things and its true. This sadly is about a move which is causing lots of anger from people who have seen themselves as King and country collectors
Mitch

 

[The Military Workshop]

Hi Guys,
A few comments.

a) Neil - TG paras and Germans etc are cheaper than K&C. However I sell more of K&C. An obvious reason for this would be they have the item available for me to order for much longer periods (in some cases 4-5 years, obviously there must be a cost in this as mentioned by Brad elsewhere). TG Para paint scheme quite different to K&C and in my view do not mix well with K&C. Of all the TG items I have got my Para figures have not been one of the popular ones (I got more Foreign Legion and 24th Foot).

b) Mitch, I have known many figure modellers, employed four good ones over the years and been to many model shows. Your view that a cam scheme would take as long to paint as olive drab simply goes against what I believe to be the case. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one and others can make up their own mind.

As regards my comments on your painting skills please note you have recently made a number of comments about your painting expertise such as "If you are going to try an evaluate painting difficulty at least speak with someone who knows about this". You also made mention of your championship level painting.

You are commenting upon figure painting and in my experience of literally hundreds of modellers from several clubs there were not many armour modellers who were also good figure painters, although there were a few. My comment that you considered "rather unnecessary and childish derogatory remarks" was "there seem to be a few members down here (not quite 37) who are quite keen to see examples of your expert figure painting". How is that derogatory ? Whilst I have seen you post mainly vehicle conversions or touch ups I dont recall ever seeing a figure totally painted by you. The reference to 37 was the number of people you said you had discussed the Arnhem figures with. So how about showing us some of your championship level figures ? There is not much chance it is going to change the focus of the Arnhem debate (as you suggest I was trying to do) so I would not be concerned about that.

c) Alex, Chris Tay picked up your use of the word "blindly" and you subsequently commented "K&C does have sort of a mystique or cult, that is what I mean by blindly, K&C loyalists will not even consider another product." You have made similar comments in the past. I can only speak of the Australians I know on the forum but if you look at the most active Australian forum members I think you would find none that only buys K&C.
I will use a small group of five shop regulars to illustrate this point. Here is what I know they collect :
Jack - K&C, Britains, Jenkins, TG
Larso - K&C, CS, Jenkins, Conte
Fitzgibbon - K&C, Jenkins, CS, TG, Britains
Waynepoo - K&C, Jenkins, TG
Phil (quiet forum member) K&C, Jenkins,TG, Britains.

An interesting point from the above 5 is that it was K&C product (Naps and Lighthorse) that got 4 of them into this hobby (cant remember about Larso).

Other multi brand buyers are Northgatewoods, Wayne WA, TomNT, Obee, Villagehorse, The Ruskie to name a few.

All are adults spending their own money as they see fit. To change your own line slightly "spend (my) their own money with companies that make what (I am ) they are into as we all should do".
Just thought I would point this out as they do not make "blind" decisions.

d) Brad, Made an excellent point about stock. In some cases the stock is available for 4-5 years and I can see further production runs have been done in that period. With TG I sometimes have to make up my mind on order numbers very quickly as may sell out due to low numbers. Some recent Britains items have sold out for ever or gone out of stock soon after release (ie. available from Britains).

Mitch to Brad "We all understand that the companies have a overhead and are in this to make a profit nobody cares about that". Easy to say when you are not making a living out of the TS business. Would it sound arrogant on my part if I said "If you are going to try an evaluate business overheads (painting difficulty deleted) at least speak with someone who knows about this".

All I can say is that we are lucky the figures are coming out later this month and not late next month. Then people can make up their own mind (Waynepoo can you bring your camera with you so you can do comparison pics for the forum).

Regards
Brett

 

[MCKENNA77]

It's been a while since I've seen the forum scream this hard. I've been on here since 2005 and believe me people scream on here. Like a baby on an international flight. I don't know or do Andy's accounting books, thus commenting on Chinese operating costs seems like a waste of resources in my opinion. I wish K&C would have released some information in regards to the long term approach of "P". Will the various series that I collect get picked to go "P"? How is that determination made? I am really hoping it is done by a giant Vegas size roulette wheel. Will there be a raffle held in regards to who gets to spin it? If I did win said raffle I would fly to Hong Kong with hopes of it landing on WWII Germans. That way I could hear the collective groan of the entire toy soldier community at once.

People are habitual by nature. Part of me feels like I walked into my regular clothing store and they changed the entire inventory for high end Versace suits. I am a collector, thus I collect. The more I collect the better. Yes I have paid over $100 a figure for a non K&C toy soldier. I am not trying to sound pretentious but I didn't have many of those $100 figures. The main point I guess is that I have always associated K&C with being capable of buying multiples and making scenes/dioramas. With this new pricing I will not be able to do such.

Additionally, I can not see the differences in the better sculpting and painting in the promotional photographs provided. Maybe its just me but they look like regular good quality K&C figures to me. I don't doubt that there are differences. Maybe its because I'm too good of freinds with Puff the Magic Dragon and his glaucoma side kick. I wonder if it would be possible to get a 360 view on a high def camera.

K&C had to anticipate this sort of so called push back. I wonder what their response will be. I am curious as to how well "P" sales go.

Time will tell.

Keep it silly

 

[trooper]

Much has been said here regarding the possible extra work involved in painting camouflaged figures. Would this argument still hold water if Mr Neilson decided to produce a simpler figure within this range? I can't see it being a factor for Black Brunswickers for example. Trooper

 

[HistoryfortheAges]

I was excited about the new Custer series but after seeing the latest prices for the Indians, I am out of this series with just the Custer figure... {eek3} I will be lookng to deploy my collecting $$ elsewhere. {sm3}

 

[larso]

"An interesting point from the above 5 is that it was K&C product (Naps and Lighthorse) that got 4 of them into this hobby (cant remember about Larso)."

It was the Conte Gordon's and the Jenkins Jacobites that finally got me in. I decided to base my collecting around the British army and its colourful opponents and the K & C Napoleonics rounded it out perfectly. This said, I had got a handful of the K & C Crusaders a few years before but the price, with the Aussie dollar performing badly at that stage, deterred me from going further. With our dollar so strong now I've made hay the last couple of years. Aside from the Napoleonics, I'm back into the Crusades and started on the Indians. Apart from Jenkins 18th Century stuff and Conte's 19th Century I also collect CS 43AD. The point I'm leading too is I buy what I like. I'm not keen on the bigger K & C Napoleonic figures of late and I'm picky with what lines I go into, regardless of the manufacterer. It happens that most of the figures I like are made by K & C. I will still get them but it will be fewer than before. Other makers have an opportunity to get my money but only if the range interests me and the quality is good.

 

[ChrisTay]

I was excited about the new Custer series but after seeing the latest prices for the Indians, I am out of this series with just the Custer figure... {eek3} I will be lookng to deploy my collecting $$ elsewhere. {sm3}

i just got back from the K&C dealer, picking up some of the recently retired stuff. I also took the opportunity to look at the older Indian figures and can only say that they do look 2 dimensional with a flatter paintwork. They were placed next to the new Custer series.


From the recent dispatch, the newer Indians, judging from the pictures, was enough to make me jump up to look into this series. I am quite sure the new Indians are going to win over some new converts who want to collect Indians. All I can say is it did make some of us take notice of this range. The Custer did not as much but the Indians certainly did. Some folks will even consider collecting the new Indians by themselves. All we need are some buffaloes thrown in.



If I do not buy the Indians, it is probably because I am buying the "P"MGs, the Medics and the 38Ts, mainly WW2. So, it is just kiv for the Indians because Wild West has not much relevance for me in this part of the world. I think if it is a series that you like, then perhaps it will be better to look from that perspective and compare with similar figures from the competition. The competition may be lower price, and less detailed. The competition may be higher price, more detailed, even customized one of a kind. In the end, I think it is a always back to basics, if you want a Cowboy versus Indians scene, where will you source from? What will look good to the best of your budget?

Finally, if you are so pissed that even you want to part with the Custers at a discount, do drop me a PM. Just a light hearted knock... But, who doesn't want stuff discounted. That goes the same for the rest of you who are utterly flabbergasted with the "P" and want to get rid of your existing stuff.

Chris

 

[Jürgen_Keuppe]

I have become much more discriminating now. The price increase means I will buy fewer than before. But if I see a stunning action pose, I will probably get it.

 

[IONA]

I have become much more discriminating now. The price increase means I will buy fewer than before. But if I see a stunning action pose, I will probably get it.

I have become that discriminating i have just stopped collecting
Scott

 

[Eazy]

I have become much more discriminating now. The price increase means I will buy fewer than before. But if I see a stunning action pose, I will probably get it.

Actually you've hit on a good point- I'd have been way more interested in these figures if they were dynamic action poses and not poses standing around with binoculars and making tea.

 

[uksubs]

Actually you've hit on a good point- I'd have been way more interested in these figures if they were dynamic action poses and not poses standing around with binoculars and making tea.

That the way I fill about the figures don't do nothing for me I'm sorry to say

 

[ChrisTay]

Actually you've hit on a good point- I'd have been way more interested in these figures if they were dynamic action poses and not poses standing around with binoculars and making tea.

I don't drink coffee I take tea my dear
I like my toast done on one side
And you can hear it in my accent when I talk
I'm an Englishman in Arnhem.

 

[uksubs]

I don't drink coffee I take tea my dear
I like my toast done on one side
And you can hear it in my accent when I talk
I'm an Englishman in Arnhem.

Sting :wink2:

 

[Eazy]

I don't drink coffee I take tea my dear
I like my toast done on one side
And you can hear it in my accent when I talk
I'm an Englishman in Arnhem.

Lol lol - it's not often Sting finds his way into the forum.

Though Rob and I once did a whole series of posts where we had to use the title of a Status Quo song without anybody noticing.

 

[HistoryfortheAges]

i just got back from the K&C dealer, picking up some of the recently retired stuff. I also took the opportunity to look at the older Indian figures and can only say that they do look 2 dimensional with a flatter paintwork. They were placed next to the new Custer series.


From the recent dispatch, the newer Indians, judging from the pictures, was enough to make me jump up to look into this series. I am quite sure the new Indians are going to win over some new converts who want to collect Indians. All I can say is it did make some of us take notice of this range. The Custer did not as much but the Indians certainly did. Some folks will even consider collecting the new Indians by themselves. All we need are some buffaloes thrown in.



If I do not buy the Indians, it is probably because I am buying the "P"MGs, the Medics and the 38Ts, mainly WW2. So, it is just kiv for the Indians because Wild West has not much relevance for me in this part of the world. I think if it is a series that you like, then perhaps it will be better to look from that perspective and compare with similar figures from the competition. The competition may be lower price, and less detailed. The competition may be higher price, more detailed, even customized one of a kind. In the end, I think it is a always back to basics, if you want a Cowboy versus Indians scene, where will you source from? What will look good to the best of your budget?

Finally, if you are so pissed that even you want to part with the Custers at a discount, do drop me a PM. Just a light hearted knock... But, who doesn't want stuff discounted. That goes the same for the rest of you who are utterly flabbergasted with the "P" and want to get rid of your existing stuff.

Chris

I'll keep the Custer figure but not buying anything else from this series. $35/foot figure was my line in the sand for K&C. There are plenty of other series/ranges out there by other companies at much better prices. Who knows, somebody else may come out with a good Custer series or Indians. Patience is a virtue! {sm4}

 

[Cyber Field Marshall]

Wow I never expected all the commentary on this thread gentlemen! A wide range of valid opinions offered. A part of me thinks this sabotage of the OMG series is just another Capitolron plot to rid us of OMG {sm3} {sm4} I thought I was one of only a small group of OMG enthusiasts, clearly not! I wanted to respond to some select points. Although worrisome that OMG has been "PEED" on {eek3} of even greater concern is whether or not "P" spreads to other lines. OMG camo is not the only complicated figures to paint. I think the case could be made that most series could be “PEED” on. That worries me because I like many of the lines that have intricate painting like the Greeks, Crusaders, Napoleonics, and WWII Germans. I'm thankful I've got most of the OMG series and therefore don't feel the need to buy the Pathfinders however if other series get “PEED” on I’ve got a big collector dilemma. I have no doubt a premium market exists. K&C have been selling ultra rare and ultra expensive wooden warbirds forever. Aeroart, FL and the like have been around a long time too. So selling products into this market segment likely makes sense. My fear is that P is the new norm in pricing releases and I think from all the posts this fear is quite evident in many collectors minds.

Its sad that many collectors feel they are being pushed out or have lost their passion for the hobby because of cost. I think this is a crying shame. My collection still brings me a lot of enjoyment and I'm happy for what I've got and will likely still pick up pieces from time to time despite manufacturers best attempts at pricing me out! I’ve always known I’m not a premium client but I hope K&C still will make product for us lowly peasants that arent’ akin to my little bag of plastic green armymen! :tongue:

 

[arnhem44mad]

Here's my feelings:

Ok so K&c Does mahogany warbirds which could be considered premium and as they continue to produce them it is obvious there is a large collector base for these....HOWEVER THIS GETS ME:

Remember what happened in the last months of 2012, Andy announced the discontinuation of the Arnhem range. If there was a large collector base for Market Garden where the premium series could prosper then why did Andy announce the discontinuation of the series. Why did he not just continue to produce MG figures.

He choose to discontinue the range (only he will know why) But then when all the collectors including myself made an uproar then he announced that he had changed his mind!

Now we are seeing premium figures (P) in the MG range which was due discontinuation just 4 months ago. If Andy felt the MG range was popular then why did he announce the discontinuation?

Then when bringing out new releases he brings the P figures out using that range as what seems like a test. If there were not enough buyers when it was MG then what are the chances of this increasing when they are MG(P)

Just seems too backward to me! Unless Andy saw the responses to the discontinuation and spent the last few months thinking of how he could use this to his advantage? I can't see how the release of P figures can be justified when everything that has hapened in relation to the MG range is taken into account?

For those of you who I have lost in the spiel, here's a timeline.

Around 2007/8 Andy annouces new MG Range - Forum is filled with excitement
In August/September of 2008 (I think) 16 odd figures are released with 2 vehicles
The Next year another 5 figures and an artillery piece are released.
Almost a year passes then Poles are released
Then a large gap almost 2 years then final releases are made (unknown to collectors)
Another year or maybe 2 then in The final quarter of 2012 we are told that arnhem is discontinued (Why? We may assume Andy thought this range was not popular enough)
The following week see countless threads about Arnhem/MG
Then Andy comes back and announces he had a meeting with whoever his main staff are and has planned for 20 new figures or so
April 2013 and the figures come out but are of the 'Premium' range

Now between cancelling the range and bringing new figures out, we must assume that Andy had a change of heart?

So the range went from being not very collectable to a range where only collectors who can afford high costs can collect?

Maybe Andy is fed up with Market Garden and wants it to end so is making the figures dearer to limit collectors purchasing them?

Who knows, I look forward to hearing his responses but!:smile2:

Scott