"Refugees on the Road" (2 Viewers)

[King & Country]

“Good Taste… Bad Taste… and No Taste!”

Hi Guys,

I’ve been following the debate on the photos of our “Refugees on the Road” that I posted recently… Here’s my take on it…

Good taste is like great beauty—it’s very much in the eye or eyes of the beholder. As the old adage says “One man’s meat is another man’s poison”.

Let’s get one thing straight… from the time warfare began refugees, of one kind or another, have been a sad fact of life (and death).

What the 19th. and particularly the 20.th Centuries brought us was photography (both still and moving) where we could actually see photographs and newsreel of ordinary civilians displaced by the tide of war.

Any pictorial record of the Fall of France in 1940 or the Invasion of Russia in 1941 or the Defeat of Germany in 1945 rarely fails to include images of civilians on the road or standing by the ruins of their homes during these tumultuous events. They are as much a part of a wartime scene as a Sherman Tank or a column of German infantry foot sloggers… So, what’s with the “slightly disturbing”… “Looks like a load of Jews”… “They look too clean to be refugees”… etc… etc.

As for “doing without photographers taking photos of them”… well, would it be acceptable if it was K&C’s GI photo journalist or even a civilian photographer perhaps? Is it just because we used a couple of Germans?

As K&C (and many collectors) move even deeper into creating scenes, dioramas or dramatic displays I feel it’s important to add extra elements like accessories… buildings… destroyed vehicles and, yes, even civilians where they are appropriate. I am happy to see that most of the respondents on this particular thread seem to agree with me.

No matter what K&C does there’s always going to be a few people who don’t like it or choose to suggest sinister ulterior motives…

Oh well… c’est la vie… c’est la guerre.

Best wishes and happy collecting!
Andy C.

P.S. Talking of guns being held to heads… If you don’t like it… don’t buy it!

 

[CollectionFigurine]

Let me answer in relation to what I can read.

I am quite surprised by the comments (...) know that in France, is the country which undoubtedly is part of first concerned.

Civilians at King & Country are expected with enthusiasm and I have heard nothing that leads us to believe that some of the comments are supported in France ...

Thanks to King & Country's who allowed civilians to take FIRST place in our dioramas

 

[jazzeum]

Let's see, where do we stop: we've had Nazis cavorting at Berchtesgaden while millions suffered, a refugee being led away to be shot and now photographers leering at and taking pictures of refugees in their moment of humiliation. Where it will end? Is anything acceptable? Apparently. We can show Eva and Adolf partying. Why not them commiting suicide. What is to stop the depiction of a scene showing civilians being shot while trying to escape? Yes, it is about the Germans. There are bounds to this hobby of toy soldiers and we seem to be crossing them.

I guess we can always fall back on that refrain buy why what you like, even if that means a concentration camp scene

 

[SteveDavid]

Let's see, where do we stop: we've had Nazis cavorting at Berchtesgaden while millions suffered, a refugee being led away to be shot and now photographers leering at and taking pictures of refugees in their moment of humiliation. Where it will end? Is anything acceptable? Apparently. We can show Eva and Adolf partying. Why not them commiting suicide. What is to stop the depiction of a scene showing civilians being shot while trying to escape? Yes, it is about the Germans. There are bounds to this hobby of toy soldiers and we seem to be crossing them.

I guess we can always fall back on that refrain buy why what you like, even if that means a concentration camp scene

Well said Brad!

 

[aujj65]

I don't usually get involved in this sort of discussion on the forum, but these are model soldiers/model figures depicting events in our past history. We all have different opinions and most of us are able to make up our own minds whether these are suitable to buy and display in our collections. We should also judge these model soldiers/figures in terms of quality of manufacturing which imho are very nice renditions.

Jeff

 

[King & Country]

Hi Brad,

I thought I’d addressed many, of your points… but apparently not…!

As it happens my friend there’s plenty of boundaries I personally (and therefore K&C) have no wish to cross… Concentration camp scenes and massacres of civilians are two in particular I can think of for a start.

The death of Adolf and Eva is one of I’ve thought of before and a “definite maybe”. As you say Brad for you and a couple of others, “It’s all about Germans”…

If you’re so concerned about the millions who suffered during WW2 (and plenty of other conflicts) perhaps you would be better taking up a less “warlike” hobby… there’s plenty to choose from.

Over the years K&C has produced all kinds of figures, fighting vehicles and a host of other accessories and items… our primary interest and goal was and remains to reproduce in miniature a huge variety of historical subjects that cover a wide and growing range of eras and periods.

Luckily for us the vast majority of what we do has appealed (and continues to do so) to a wide and growing band of collectors all over the globe.

Unfortunately not everything will be liked by everyone… On this one my friend we’ll have to agree… to disagree.

C’est la vie… c’est la guerre… c’est les petits soldats!

Best wishes and happy hobbying.
Andy C.

 

[Eazy]

How about the British para cameraman filming cheering dutch civilians.
That would be realistic and somehow a more positive image perhaps as a counterpoint to the early war refugees filmed by Nazis?

 

[Rob]

How about the British para cameraman filming cheering dutch civilians.
That would be realistic and somehow a more positive image perhaps as a counterpoint to the early war refugees filmed by Nazis?

Dutch civvies would be a good idea James.Throwing flowers,giving out drinks,kisses etc.

I'd love to see some figures to compliment the 'for you Fritz' set, how about a couple of irate farmers armed with pitchforks?.Do you remember that scene in Battle of Britain with the farmer,not sure if its a Polish RAF Pilot or a Luftwaffe pilot who lands by chute.He tries to speak to this big old rough farmer who replies by threatening him with aforementioned pitchfork saying 'Get your hands up you Nazi B*****d!!

I remember Bob saying that his grandmother went out and clouted a Luftwaffe pilot with a frying pan when he landed close by her house,its both typically comical and brave of the British home front isn't it

I think K&C really nailed the Fritz set and its one of my favourites,all the figures are very well done and very evocative of that period,more please Andy!

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

I guess I should have read the entire thread before posting. It seems the actual figures are not the issue with some, it's the way that K & C depicted them.

As I said, I won't buy any, not much point as I don't make dioramas.

However, I must admit the SS camera crew did give me a chill, but perhaps that was the intention. To remind us that most forum members collect items based on the worst conflict in history. I wonder if I would have got the same chill if K & C depicted them leaving Dresden, perhaps with a Mosquito Fighter/Bomber chasing them.

It makes you think, doesn't it. Or at least I hope it does.

 

[Rob]

I guess I should have read the entire thread before posting. It seems the actual figures are not the issue with some, it's the way that K & C depicted them.

As I said, I won't buy any, not much point as I don't make dioramas.

However, I must admit the SS camera crew did give me a chill, but perhaps that was the intention. To remind us that we collect items based on the worst conflict in history. I wonder if I would have got the same chill if K & C depicted them leaving Dresden, perhaps with a Mosquito chasing them.

It makes you think, doesn't it. Or at least I hope it does.

Yep,its good to be reminded about what we are talking about here.Its the same with the dead and wounded figures,I was talking about this on another forum just recently,for me not so much a tribute to but more a reminder now and again of what we are collecting and what was done for freedom.

We all have differing viewpoints on this and its what makes this hobby so enjoyable,be boring if we all collected the same thing.

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

Yep,its good to be reminded about what we are talking about here.Its the same with the dead and wounded figures,I was talking about this on another forum just recently,for me not so much a tribute to but more a reminder now and again of what we are collecting and what was done for freedom.

We all have differing viewpoints on this and its what makes this hobby so enjoyable,be boring if we all collected the same thing.

Rob

Hi Rob, I guess I must be part of the boring section because I don't have any wounded or dead figures. In fact I have very few firing poses, I mainly collect vehicles then pad the display with non combatant poses depicting soldiers doing maintenance, and officers looking at maps, in fact there are lots and lots of guys with maps

 

[jazzeum]

Hi Brad,

I thought I’d addressed many, of your points… but apparently not…!

As it happens my friend there’s plenty of boundaries I personally (and therefore K&C) have no wish to cross… Concentration camp scenes and massacres of civilians are two in particular I can think of for a start.

The death of Adolf and Eva is one of I’ve thought of before and a “definite maybe”. As you say Brad for you and a couple of others, “It’s all about Germans”…

If you’re so concerned about the millions who suffered during WW2 (and plenty of other conflicts) perhaps you would be better taking up a less “warlike” hobby… there’s plenty to choose from.

Over the years K&C has produced all kinds of figures, fighting vehicles and a host of other accessories and items… our primary interest and goal was and remains to reproduce in miniature a huge variety of historical subjects that cover a wide and growing range of eras and periods.

Luckily for us the vast majority of what we do has appealed (and continues to do so) to a wide and growing band of collectors all over the globe.

Unfortunately not everything will be liked by everyone… On this one my friend we’ll have to agree… to disagree.

C’est la vie… c’est la guerre… c’est les petits soldats!

Best wishes and happy hobbying.
Andy C.

Andy,

Yes, on that one we will have to disagree. Frankly, I would be happier if the LAH line would bite the dust but I know that's not going to happen. However, my thoughts on this line is well known so I guess I won't trod down that path again today.

As far as boundaries crossing, sometimes when you go down a road there's no way back.

As far as choosing another hobby, I would hope that honest discussion would not be greeted by "go find yourself another hobby", particularly to a fanatic who has strongly supported King & Country and you for several years.

What you mostly do does have great appeal to many collectors, including myself (as my collection is a reflection of that; ninety percent K & C) as, as you say, you get it right most of the time. However, the insinuation that is otherwise with respect to yours truly is a little disturbing.

Regards from your pal (hopefully still ),

 

[Eazy]

Dutch civvies would be a good idea James.Throwing flowers,giving out drinks,kisses etc.

I'd love to see some figures to compliment the 'for you Fritz' set, how about a couple of irate farmers armed with pitchforks?.Do you remember that scene in Battle of Britain with the farmer,not sure if its a Polish RAF Pilot or a Luftwaffe pilot who lands by chute.He tries to speak to this big old rough farmer who replies by threatening him with aforementioned pitchfork saying 'Get your hands up you Nazi B*****d!!

I remember Bob saying that his grandmother went out and clouted a Luftwaffe pilot with a frying pan when he landed close by her house,its both typically comical and brave of the British home front isn't it

I think K&C really nailed the Fritz set and its one of my favourites,all the figures are very well done and very evocative of that period,more please Andy!

Rob

Classic!

My nan told me that when some Italian POW's tried to talk to her and her sister her Mom came out and chased them away with a broom!

 

[Eazy]

Hi Rob, I guess I must be part of the boring section because I don't have any wounded or dead figures. In fact I have very few firing poses, I mainly collect vehicles then pad the display with non combatant poses depicting soldiers doing maintenance, and officers looking at maps, actually looking at them, there are lots and lots of guys with maps

..and binoculars.

 

[OzDigger]

..and binoculars.

And they're all pointing, and their eyes follow me around the room

 

[Rob]

Classic!

My nan told me that when some Italian POW's tried to talk to her and her sister her Mom came out and chased them away with a broom!

The best of Mussolini's,seen off with a broom!

Rob

 

[arnhem44mad]

My turn for an input

Okay King and Country had the new figures being photographed by German soldiers...big woop!

If one feels that there is something sinister about then one must obviously have a very paranoid sinister mind!

Let us consider that the D-Day figure was taking the picture, why is he not helping them?
Or the british para, why is he only picturing him and not giving them a hand to move?

Fact is it was obviously just a random choosing of the germans, but the fact that there are two camera men makes the photograph more interesting than if there was only one.
Its not like they have german soldiers behind them pushing them along at gun point or firing on them from a tank turret?
Those civvies could be german civvies for all we know!

Now to the gestapo set........I think this set is great, I have it sitting beside me right now, it shows how we are not hidden from the actual horrors of war, okay maybe one would rather be padded securely against any real facts about war, but if that is the case, then one should not look at the set, and maybe keep one's sarky comments to themselves.

Just my feelings about this

 

[Mitch]

arnhem44mad....

Well said. Though I do not want to seem argumentative it was some of the points I raised which you stated succinctly in your post and, ones which echo Mr Neilson's rather brusk comments. which, I agree with.

It does seem that those who are somewhat moralising over discontinuing sets they dislike and connecting civillian sets with massacres and concentration camps are falling into the trap of censorship which, my grandfather and uncles fought against in WWII and, the problem with the ICC 'victors justice' and, seemingly moral high ground over the defeated.

Both allied and axis did objectionable things to civillians and POW. Of the top of my head I can name 'the dachau massacre' Biscan massacre and, the redesignation of german POW's into disarmed enemy forces in WWII as some of the things that Allied did against the defeated.

I can also recount numerous incidents from my Uncle Tommy where he was either party or witnessed german troops being bayoneted POW or shot them outright.

How boring a hobby it would be should we not have people with the fortitude to produce and retail items which, portray our history.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

arnhem44mad....

Well said. Though I do not want to seem argumentative it was some of the points I raised which you stated succinctly in your post and, ones which echo Mr Neilson's rather brusk comments. which, I agree with.

It does seem that those who are somewhat moralising over discontinuing sets they dislike and connecting civillian sets with massacres and concentration camps are falling into the trap of censorship which, my grandfather and uncles fought against in WWII and, the problem with the ICC 'victors justice' and, seemingly moral high ground over the defeated.

Both allied and axis did objectionable things to civillians and POW. Of the top of my head I can name 'the dachau massacre' Biscan massacre and, the redesignation of german POW's into disarmed enemy forces in WWII as some of the things that Allied did against the defeated.

I can also recount numerous incidents from my Uncle Tommy where he was either party or witnessed german troops being bayoneted POW or shot them outright.

How boring a hobby it would be should we not have people with the fortitude to produce and retail items which, portray our history.
Mitch

Mitch,I can totally agree witha lot of what you say,but we don't honestly think Allied atrocities were on anything like the scale and frequency of those carried out by the Germans and Japenese do we,it does sound like you are almost comparing the two sides equally and that would be an insult to our troops.Just my thoughts mate and no offence intended.

Rob

 

[arnhem44mad]

Mitch,I can totally agree witha lot of what you say,but we don't honestly think Allied atrocities were on anything like the scale and frequency of those carried out by the Germans and Japenese do we,it does sound like you are almost comparing the two sides equally and that would be an insult to our troops.Just my thoughts mate and no offence intended.

Rob

Or russians, ok they were hard done toat stalingrad and that should not be forgotten, but they did some horrendous stuff in Berlin