The American Civil War Diaries (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter UKReb
- Start date
Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
Hi Reb,
Yours has been a remarkable presentation of a stirring and dramatic moment in history. When it comes to diorama construction, you have no superiors and darn few peers. Your narrative tells the story in the most engaging of ways. Without a doubt, I will refer to this thread many, many times in the future. Thank you for such a thrilling and marvelous presentation.
Warmest personal regards,
Pat
Hi Reb,
Yours has been a remarkable presentation of a stirring and dramatic moment in history. When it comes to diorama construction, you have no superiors and darn few peers. Your narrative tells the story in the most engaging of ways. Without a doubt, I will refer to this thread many, many times in the future. Thank you for such a thrilling and marvelous presentation.
Warmest personal regards,
Pat
Harrytheheid
Banned
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
BOB,
YOU ARE HEREBY OFFICIALLY INVITED TO JOIN THE SOHK/ASIAN COLLECTORS CLUB.
WE WON'T EVEN CHARGE YOU AN ENTRANCE FEE...!!!!
I ALSO AM GOING TO PRINT OUT THIS ENTIRE THREAD AND PUT IT INTO A RING-BINDER. IF FACT, WHEN I GET A CHANCE I'LL BE DOING THE SAME WITH THE LT'S ZULU WAR, KEVIN'S BATTLE OF THE BULGE, ARNHEM AND DESERT DIOS - AND ALL OF RANDY'S AMAZING LITTLE VIGNETTES. AND THAT IS BY NO MEANS AN EXHAUSTIVE LIST.
BETTER BUY A FEW MORE PRINTER CARTRIDGES......
I JOIN WITH JEFF IN NOT UNDERMINING THE TALENTS OF ALL THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM WHO CONTRIBUTE IN MANY WAYS - BUT BOB'S DOCU-DIORAMA SPEAKS FOR ITSELF AND I'M SURE IT'S PROVIDED INSPIRATION TO MANY OF US TO IMPROVE HOW WE PRESENT OUR DISPLAYS AND DIORAMAS - I KNOW THAT IT'S HAD THAT AFFECT ON ME.
WELL DONE AND HERE'S LOOKING FORWARD TO BULL RUN, WILSON'S CREEK, ET AL.......
Cheers
Inspired Heid
Yeah, you’re right Harry
I have started to download all these photos onto my pc for printing and collating into paper copies at a later date. This whole thread should be an inspiration to us all.
In no way am I undermining the wonderful talents of the many members who participate on this forum when I say this.
Jeff
BOB,
YOU ARE HEREBY OFFICIALLY INVITED TO JOIN THE SOHK/ASIAN COLLECTORS CLUB.
WE WON'T EVEN CHARGE YOU AN ENTRANCE FEE...!!!!
I ALSO AM GOING TO PRINT OUT THIS ENTIRE THREAD AND PUT IT INTO A RING-BINDER. IF FACT, WHEN I GET A CHANCE I'LL BE DOING THE SAME WITH THE LT'S ZULU WAR, KEVIN'S BATTLE OF THE BULGE, ARNHEM AND DESERT DIOS - AND ALL OF RANDY'S AMAZING LITTLE VIGNETTES. AND THAT IS BY NO MEANS AN EXHAUSTIVE LIST.
BETTER BUY A FEW MORE PRINTER CARTRIDGES......
I JOIN WITH JEFF IN NOT UNDERMINING THE TALENTS OF ALL THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM WHO CONTRIBUTE IN MANY WAYS - BUT BOB'S DOCU-DIORAMA SPEAKS FOR ITSELF AND I'M SURE IT'S PROVIDED INSPIRATION TO MANY OF US TO IMPROVE HOW WE PRESENT OUR DISPLAYS AND DIORAMAS - I KNOW THAT IT'S HAD THAT AFFECT ON ME.
WELL DONE AND HERE'S LOOKING FORWARD TO BULL RUN, WILSON'S CREEK, ET AL.......
Cheers
Inspired Heid
Louis Badolato
Lieutenant General
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
I have to agree with Harry: UKREB's thread, Panda1gen's Threads and The Lt.'s threads are like books onto themselves. I learn far more about history on this forum then I ever did in school. Thank you for what amounts to a masterpiece.
I have to agree with Harry: UKREB's thread, Panda1gen's Threads and The Lt.'s threads are like books onto themselves. I learn far more about history on this forum then I ever did in school. Thank you for what amounts to a masterpiece.
kilted vampire
Lieutenant Colonel
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
Bob, Great ending. Looking forward to co-ordinating future attacks!
Bob, Great ending. Looking forward to co-ordinating future attacks!
UKReb
Command Sergeant Major
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- Aug 31, 2007
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- 2,436
Grant takes Command
TEASER TRAILER
March 26th 1864 Brandy Station Virginia- Army of the Potomac Headquarters
General Meade Commander of the AoP and his Corps Generals are anxiously awaiting the arrival of their new Commander in Chief of the Armies of the United States-Lt Gen. U.S.Grant.
There is much animated discussion amongst the officers on the subject of the new appointment as none of them had met Grant before.
"They say he served with Taylor in the Mexican War"
"He apparently has a reputation for being a hard drinker"
"Yes, and one of the clerks in Washington told me that the President asked someone to find out what brand of whisky he drank so that he could order a barrel for each of his generals"
"Well President Lincoln obviously thinks highly of him as he had Congress re-authorize the rank of Lieutenant General and the last person to hold that rank was George Washington himself"
"No! Winfield Scott held the rank"
"I beg to differ sir, Winfield Scott's was a brevet appointment"
"Well Grant has not met Bobby Lee yet"
"Very true! It will be interesting to see how he handles the old wily Gray Fox in our neck of the woods for no doubt he will find him more of a handful than Joe Johnston"
They all laughed except Meade who interrupted their laughter by saying
"I fear gentlemen that I will be relieved of this command and replaced by General Sherman"
Before any of them could reply they heard the regimental band strike up Hail to the Chief. Grant had arrived!
Grant riding his favourite steed Cincinatti was accompanied by his chief aide Colonel Porter. Meade saluted and said
"General Grant sir!, welcome to Brandy Station"
"Thank you General Meade it's been a long ride from Washington"
Grant dismounted and the officer's grouped around him curious and somewhat surprised at his slight stature. They had expected the Saviour of the Union Army to have been a larger than life figure.
Grant smiled briefly as he said
"I am sure you all want to know what my strategy will be. Well gentlemen, my plan is simple General Sherman will advance against Joe Johnston's Army of Tennessee who are defending Atlanta........
Meade almost sighed with relief
..........Ben Butler with his Army of the James will strike east toward Petersburg while we will advance against the Army of Virginia all the way to Richmond"
"Now gentlemen if you will excuse me whilst I brief the details to General Meade"
Grant went to move but stopped, turned and added
"Oh! gentlemen, one more thing. Ever since I came East all I have heard in every conversation is Robert E Lee. I suggest you stop worrying what Bobby Lee will do to us and start worrying about what we will do to him for I shall take no backward steps but continue this fight until either the Rebel Army surrender or every last one of them is destroyed"
Grant had indeed taken command!
TEASER TRAILER
March 26th 1864 Brandy Station Virginia- Army of the Potomac Headquarters
General Meade Commander of the AoP and his Corps Generals are anxiously awaiting the arrival of their new Commander in Chief of the Armies of the United States-Lt Gen. U.S.Grant.
There is much animated discussion amongst the officers on the subject of the new appointment as none of them had met Grant before.
"They say he served with Taylor in the Mexican War"
"He apparently has a reputation for being a hard drinker"
"Yes, and one of the clerks in Washington told me that the President asked someone to find out what brand of whisky he drank so that he could order a barrel for each of his generals"
"Well President Lincoln obviously thinks highly of him as he had Congress re-authorize the rank of Lieutenant General and the last person to hold that rank was George Washington himself"
"No! Winfield Scott held the rank"
"I beg to differ sir, Winfield Scott's was a brevet appointment"
"Well Grant has not met Bobby Lee yet"
"Very true! It will be interesting to see how he handles the old wily Gray Fox in our neck of the woods for no doubt he will find him more of a handful than Joe Johnston"
They all laughed except Meade who interrupted their laughter by saying
"I fear gentlemen that I will be relieved of this command and replaced by General Sherman"
Before any of them could reply they heard the regimental band strike up Hail to the Chief. Grant had arrived!
Grant riding his favourite steed Cincinatti was accompanied by his chief aide Colonel Porter. Meade saluted and said
"General Grant sir!, welcome to Brandy Station"
"Thank you General Meade it's been a long ride from Washington"
Grant dismounted and the officer's grouped around him curious and somewhat surprised at his slight stature. They had expected the Saviour of the Union Army to have been a larger than life figure.
Grant smiled briefly as he said
"I am sure you all want to know what my strategy will be. Well gentlemen, my plan is simple General Sherman will advance against Joe Johnston's Army of Tennessee who are defending Atlanta........
Meade almost sighed with relief
..........Ben Butler with his Army of the James will strike east toward Petersburg while we will advance against the Army of Virginia all the way to Richmond"
"Now gentlemen if you will excuse me whilst I brief the details to General Meade"
Grant went to move but stopped, turned and added
"Oh! gentlemen, one more thing. Ever since I came East all I have heard in every conversation is Robert E Lee. I suggest you stop worrying what Bobby Lee will do to us and start worrying about what we will do to him for I shall take no backward steps but continue this fight until either the Rebel Army surrender or every last one of them is destroyed"
Grant had indeed taken command!
Dickbuttons
Sergeant
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
Really superb. Can't wait until the next epsiode arrives.
Thanks for the posting.
Dick
Really superb. Can't wait until the next epsiode arrives.
Thanks for the posting.
Dick
Louis Badolato
Lieutenant General
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
I got a bad feeling about this thread, Reb, there are going to be a lot of bodies . . .
I got a bad feeling about this thread, Reb, there are going to be a lot of bodies . . .
Wraith
Major
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
Don't they all sit down for a chat, over a nice cup of tea, sort out their differences and live happily ever after?
Must brush up on my ACW history....
Don't they all sit down for a chat, over a nice cup of tea, sort out their differences and live happily ever after?
Must brush up on my ACW history....
Louis Badolato
Lieutenant General
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
The term "butcher's bill" might have been coined for Grant. The man knew he had such an advantage in numbers and supplies that he figured he could just force Lee to trade bodies with him until the South bled to death. It worked, but the cost . . .
The term "butcher's bill" might have been coined for Grant. The man knew he had such an advantage in numbers and supplies that he figured he could just force Lee to trade bodies with him until the South bled to death. It worked, but the cost . . .
Warrior
Lieutenant General
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
Any suggestions Louis as to another strategy in the East? Should the Union have kept pussy footing around with the Confederates like all the generals prior to Grant?
Lee knew he was doomed when after the Battles of the Wilderness and Spotsylvannia, Grant ATTACKED at Cold Harbor rather than do what previous Generals had done; retreat and regroup.
You may dicker with the strategy, but not the results; after Grant took over, the war was over in less than eight months.
And after another one of your favorites Launched Cobra, WWII was over in eight months.
Coincedence, I think not. Put a man who has a pair in charge and that's all she wrote.........
Any suggestions Louis as to another strategy in the East? Should the Union have kept pussy footing around with the Confederates like all the generals prior to Grant?
Lee knew he was doomed when after the Battles of the Wilderness and Spotsylvannia, Grant ATTACKED at Cold Harbor rather than do what previous Generals had done; retreat and regroup.
You may dicker with the strategy, but not the results; after Grant took over, the war was over in less than eight months.
And after another one of your favorites Launched Cobra, WWII was over in eight months.
Coincedence, I think not. Put a man who has a pair in charge and that's all she wrote.........
Louis Badolato
Lieutenant General
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
George,
I have a big problem with Grant's strategy . . . attacking strong points where you are going to loose five men for every one of the enemy's casualties may work when you outnumber the enemy 10 to 1, but it is a stupid and wasteful way to fight a war. The war was already over once Lee got whipped at Gettysburg and Sherman had lay waste to Georgia in his march to the sea. The confederates had nothing left to fight with, they just refused to realize the game was up.
Obviously attacking was the thing to do, but I say take W.T. Sherman's tactics, and just tear the heck out of the enemy's heartland, force him to fight you on your terms, on ground of your choosing. Maybe there would be a few thousand more American boys still walking around that way.
Winning wars is almost always a lot more about brains (and logistics) than balls. Give me Alexander the Great, Julius Caeser and Norman Schwartkopf over the Grants, Haigs and Pattons of the world any day.
George,
I have a big problem with Grant's strategy . . . attacking strong points where you are going to loose five men for every one of the enemy's casualties may work when you outnumber the enemy 10 to 1, but it is a stupid and wasteful way to fight a war. The war was already over once Lee got whipped at Gettysburg and Sherman had lay waste to Georgia in his march to the sea. The confederates had nothing left to fight with, they just refused to realize the game was up.
Obviously attacking was the thing to do, but I say take W.T. Sherman's tactics, and just tear the heck out of the enemy's heartland, force him to fight you on your terms, on ground of your choosing. Maybe there would be a few thousand more American boys still walking around that way.
Winning wars is almost always a lot more about brains (and logistics) than balls. Give me Alexander the Great, Julius Caeser and Norman Schwartkopf over the Grants, Haigs and Pattons of the world any day.
Warrior
Lieutenant General
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
Louis,
On the other side of the coin, had buffoons like Meade, Hooker (fighting Joe, that's a laugh), etc stayed in charge, the war would have dragged on for another two years; think how many thousands of casualties would have resulted.
Meade had Lee on the ropes after Gettysburg and the debacle known as Picketts Charge, 7,000 casualties worth, and let him slip away. He could have delivered the knock out blow and ended the war right then and there. Ask the Union troops how they felt about Grant and his strategy, he let the men actually fight the enemy, what a novel concept...........
Louis,
On the other side of the coin, had buffoons like Meade, Hooker (fighting Joe, that's a laugh), etc stayed in charge, the war would have dragged on for another two years; think how many thousands of casualties would have resulted.
Meade had Lee on the ropes after Gettysburg and the debacle known as Picketts Charge, 7,000 casualties worth, and let him slip away. He could have delivered the knock out blow and ended the war right then and there. Ask the Union troops how they felt about Grant and his strategy, he let the men actually fight the enemy, what a novel concept...........
Harrytheheid
Banned
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Re: Grant takes Command
Bob,
I'm really looking forward to the next set of photos, and the next, and the next, and the next.......
Brilliant to see you active on here again.
Cheers
H
Bob,
I'm really looking forward to the next set of photos, and the next, and the next, and the next.......
Brilliant to see you active on here again.
Cheers
H
Louis Badolato
Lieutenant General
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- Apr 25, 2005
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- 17,203
Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
George,
I am not defending the Meades, Hookers or (god forbid) McClellans of the world. They were no one's idea of intelligent commanders. And as my last post indicated, I agree that attacking and keeping pressure on Lee was correct stategy, I just think the tactic of attacking dug in positions across open ground (so often employed by Grant, Haig, Foch and the like) was stupid and wasteful. This was not WWI where you could not outflank the entrenchments. Grant should have used his enormous logistical advantage, such as the railroads and control of the waterways, moved a portion of his men around Lee, forcing Lee out of his prepared defensive positions, and then once Lee was forced to engage this "anvil", move the rest of his forces in as the "hammer".
George,
I am not defending the Meades, Hookers or (god forbid) McClellans of the world. They were no one's idea of intelligent commanders. And as my last post indicated, I agree that attacking and keeping pressure on Lee was correct stategy, I just think the tactic of attacking dug in positions across open ground (so often employed by Grant, Haig, Foch and the like) was stupid and wasteful. This was not WWI where you could not outflank the entrenchments. Grant should have used his enormous logistical advantage, such as the railroads and control of the waterways, moved a portion of his men around Lee, forcing Lee out of his prepared defensive positions, and then once Lee was forced to engage this "anvil", move the rest of his forces in as the "hammer".
Warrior
Lieutenant General
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
Louis,
The major problem with the American Civil War was the weapons were far superior to the tactics; the muskets when fired actually hit the intended target, imagine that. The days of marching up to the enemy in the middle of a field and firing back and forth until one retires were long gone.
The art of digging in and holding your ground was perfected by the Confederates in the latter part of the war; Petersburg was the first true example of trench warfare, the Generals at the time were too stuborn or pigheaded to adapt.
Like you said, it's suicide to frontally assault a fortified postion; Cold Harbor, 7,000 casualties, Picketts Charge, 7,000 casualties, the stone wall at Fredericksburg, Petersburg, etc, etc. As you pointed out, just go around them and outflank them.
Weapons ahead of the tactics means young men pay the ultimate price, and as one of the British WWII veterans said so well "They gave up their tomorows so that we could have our todays". No finer or well put quote has ever been uttered regarding war...............
Louis,
The major problem with the American Civil War was the weapons were far superior to the tactics; the muskets when fired actually hit the intended target, imagine that. The days of marching up to the enemy in the middle of a field and firing back and forth until one retires were long gone.
The art of digging in and holding your ground was perfected by the Confederates in the latter part of the war; Petersburg was the first true example of trench warfare, the Generals at the time were too stuborn or pigheaded to adapt.
Like you said, it's suicide to frontally assault a fortified postion; Cold Harbor, 7,000 casualties, Picketts Charge, 7,000 casualties, the stone wall at Fredericksburg, Petersburg, etc, etc. As you pointed out, just go around them and outflank them.
Weapons ahead of the tactics means young men pay the ultimate price, and as one of the British WWII veterans said so well "They gave up their tomorows so that we could have our todays". No finer or well put quote has ever been uttered regarding war...............
UKReb
Command Sergeant Major
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
Hi Louis/George
I sure had no intention of starting a fresh civil war on the forum after all they are only a few shots of toy soldiers arranged in a group with precised text for any members who maybe interested in what actually happened after Gettysburg.
However, I thank you for your interesting comments and your articulation of both views. I was fully aware that Sherman's march was still a sore point in some parts of the South but must admit I was unaware that Grant's tactics of total war was still held with as much contempt especially as the American populace eventually elected him as President and for two terms.
I actually agree with both of your points of view, Grant's war of attrition was driven more by Washington policy to completely destroy the Rebel Army rather than besiege and starve the Confederacy into surrender, without that political pressure maybe Grant would have undertaken it another way especially if one considers his actions at Vicksburg and Petersburg. But George is also right, the Union soldier did want to stay and fight rather than continually retreat across the Potomac-at first- for it is a documented fact that when Grant came east his troops cheered him everywhere he went The Wilderness; Spotsylvania, North Anna they still cheered him but after Cold Harbor they never cheered him again even at Appomattox.
I also agree that the Union Army had two very good chances of winning the war well before 1864 which would have saved thousands of American lives. The Peninsular campaign when McClellan was given Lee's plans wrapped around 3 cigars but waited two whole days to act on the gifted information and then consequently blew it. And the second occasion immediately after Gettysburg when Meade only gave a half-hearted and very late pursuit of the retreating Reb army.
Grant-I'm sure- in both incidents would have finished them off but as they say that's history which was all I was attempting to depict by using military miniatures that I am passionate about. In any war there are always good guys and bad guys but devilishy difficult to ascertain who's who in a Civil War. Subsequently and on reflection I think I'll scrap the dio plans of Grant's Overland Campaign on the forum and stick with less contentious subjects.
Again guys appreciate your discussion for I actually learned something I really was completely unaware of.
Reb
Hi Louis/George
I sure had no intention of starting a fresh civil war on the forum after all they are only a few shots of toy soldiers arranged in a group with precised text for any members who maybe interested in what actually happened after Gettysburg.
However, I thank you for your interesting comments and your articulation of both views. I was fully aware that Sherman's march was still a sore point in some parts of the South but must admit I was unaware that Grant's tactics of total war was still held with as much contempt especially as the American populace eventually elected him as President and for two terms.
I actually agree with both of your points of view, Grant's war of attrition was driven more by Washington policy to completely destroy the Rebel Army rather than besiege and starve the Confederacy into surrender, without that political pressure maybe Grant would have undertaken it another way especially if one considers his actions at Vicksburg and Petersburg. But George is also right, the Union soldier did want to stay and fight rather than continually retreat across the Potomac-at first- for it is a documented fact that when Grant came east his troops cheered him everywhere he went The Wilderness; Spotsylvania, North Anna they still cheered him but after Cold Harbor they never cheered him again even at Appomattox.
I also agree that the Union Army had two very good chances of winning the war well before 1864 which would have saved thousands of American lives. The Peninsular campaign when McClellan was given Lee's plans wrapped around 3 cigars but waited two whole days to act on the gifted information and then consequently blew it. And the second occasion immediately after Gettysburg when Meade only gave a half-hearted and very late pursuit of the retreating Reb army.
Grant-I'm sure- in both incidents would have finished them off but as they say that's history which was all I was attempting to depict by using military miniatures that I am passionate about. In any war there are always good guys and bad guys but devilishy difficult to ascertain who's who in a Civil War. Subsequently and on reflection I think I'll scrap the dio plans of Grant's Overland Campaign on the forum and stick with less contentious subjects.
Again guys appreciate your discussion for I actually learned something I really was completely unaware of.
Reb
Louis Badolato
Lieutenant General
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Re: Antietam: Carnage in the Corn-field
UKReb,
Please don't abandon the planned diorama on my account. I am all for you doing it, I just thought it was an interesting subject for discussion. George and I are good friends, and we were having a respectful discussion (I absolutely respect George's opinions on military matters, even on the few occasions where we disagree). I am always pleased to learn more about periods of history, and your dioramas with commentary are a fantastic educational tool. So please, proceed with your post-Gettyburg diorama.
UKReb,
Please don't abandon the planned diorama on my account. I am all for you doing it, I just thought it was an interesting subject for discussion. George and I are good friends, and we were having a respectful discussion (I absolutely respect George's opinions on military matters, even on the few occasions where we disagree). I am always pleased to learn more about periods of history, and your dioramas with commentary are a fantastic educational tool. So please, proceed with your post-Gettyburg diorama.
Warrior
Lieutenant General
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- May 12, 2005
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Reb,
I'll second what Louis said; have at it mate. As he pointed out, we were throwing our points of view out there, nothing more, nothing less. No Civil War here, trust me.
And your point is well taken; had Meade aggresively pursued Lee and finished him off after Gettysburg, the war ends right there, end of story...................
I'll second what Louis said; have at it mate. As he pointed out, we were throwing our points of view out there, nothing more, nothing less. No Civil War here, trust me.
And your point is well taken; had Meade aggresively pursued Lee and finished him off after Gettysburg, the war ends right there, end of story...................