Toy Soldier Secondary Market – Is it a “Buyers” or “Sellers” Market? Why? (3 Viewers)

[desk11desk12]

Hey guys:

I've been watching eBay & Treefrog Classifieds" for a while now and wondering what your opinion is?

Has it changed over the last couple of years, or has it?

Carlos

 

[joesgis]

Hello Carlos,

It's definitely a buyer's market these days in the secondary market, unless we're talking HB gold edition Tigers, K & C wood warbirds, one of Figrati's more sought after tanks, etc... There will always be particular items that will fetch a pretty penny no matter the economic climate or state of the TS industry. But in general, from low end figures all the way up to connoisseur level, the secondary market is a buyer's market indeed. I believe this is because more and more collectors are just enjoying what they have for a spell, while many others are simply dropping out of collecting TS entirely. I think the majority of us sit somewhere in the middle. Buyers are becoming more and more selective with some of the ridiculous pricing out there for new items coupled with products that often aren't as good as they once were. Although I see improvements w/ some manufacturers, I see "shortcuts" being taken by many others. Collectors are buying less, selling more of their own items, and the secondary market becomes more competitive. You just can't help but notice more collectors are selling off segments of their collections. The market isn't flooded but highly sought after pieces can often be picked up at fair prices these days. Lots of folks have soured on the hobby as in many cases we are paying significantly more for less. Not to mention that many of us are not making the money we once were either, yet TS prices continue to rise. I still love the hobby and always will, so pardon me if I appear to be sounding the death knell for it. I'm actually enjoying the hobby more than ever as I, like many collectors, have adopted a "less is more" philosophy as I have found what works for me in terms of getting what I believe to be the best enjoyment/value quotient I can. I'm buying less, but cherishing what I get. The current state of things has been the catalyst for a sharper focus. Add into the equation that I've quite nearly run out of space, well that's just another variable that can contribute to creating a buyer's market. Not long ago it was definitely a seller's market. A good barometer for this are speculator sales. It would appear to me that speculators are no longer getting the prices they once were able to, another indicator of a buyer's market.

Joe

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Hello Carlos,

It's definitely a buyer's market these days in the secondary market, unless we're talking HB gold edition Tigers, K & C wood warbirds, one of Figrati's more sought after tanks, etc... There will always be particular items that will fetch a pretty penny no matter the economic climate or state of the TS industry. But in general, from low end figures all the way up to connoisseur level, the secondary market is a buyer's market indeed. I believe this is because more and more collectors are just enjoying what they have for a spell, while many others are simply dropping out of collecting TS entirely. I think the majority of us sit somewhere in the middle. Buyers are becoming more and more selective with some of the ridiculous pricing out there for new items coupled with products that often aren't as good as they once were. Although I see improvements w/ some manufacturers, I see "shortcuts" being taken by many others. Collectors are buying less, selling more of their own items, and the secondary market becomes more competitive. You just can't help but notice more collectors are selling off segments of their collections. The market isn't flooded but highly sought after pieces can often be picked up at fair prices these days. Lots of folks have soured on the hobby as in many cases we are paying significantly more for less. Not to mention that many of us are not making the money we once were either, yet TS prices continue to rise. I still love the hobby and always will, so pardon me if I appear to be sounding the death knell for it. I'm actually enjoying the hobby more than ever as I, like many collectors, have adopted a "less is more" philosophy as I have found what works for me in terms of getting what I believe to be the best enjoyment/value quotient I can. I'm buying less, but cherishing what I get. The current state of things has been the catalyst for a sharper focus. Add into the equation that I've quite nearly run out of space, well that's just another variable that can contribute to creating a buyer's market. Not long ago it was definitely a seller's market. A good barometer for this are speculator sales. It would appear to me that speculators are no longer getting the prices they once were able to, another indicator of a buyer's market.

Joe

That summarizes my position in TS collecting exactly.

Terry

 

[uksubs]

That summarizes my position in TS collecting exactly.

Terry

Think it spot on :salute::

 

[kogu]

Hello Carlos,

It's definitely a buyer's market these days in the secondary market, unless we're talking HB gold edition Tigers, K & C wood warbirds, one of Figrati's more sought after tanks, etc... There will always be particular items that will fetch a pretty penny no matter the economic climate or state of the TS industry. But in general, from low end figures all the way up to connoisseur level, the secondary market is a buyer's market indeed. I believe this is because more and more collectors are just enjoying what they have for a spell, while many others are simply dropping out of collecting TS entirely. I think the majority of us sit somewhere in the middle. Buyers are becoming more and more selective with some of the ridiculous pricing out there for new items coupled with products that often aren't as good as they once were. Although I see improvements w/ some manufacturers, I see "shortcuts" being taken by many others. Collectors are buying less, selling more of their own items, and the secondary market becomes more competitive. You just can't help but notice more collectors are selling off segments of their collections. The market isn't flooded but highly sought after pieces can often be picked up at fair prices these days. Lots of folks have soured on the hobby as in many cases we are paying significantly more for less. Not to mention that many of us are not making the money we once were either, yet TS prices continue to rise. I still love the hobby and always will, so pardon me if I appear to be sounding the death knell for it. I'm actually enjoying the hobby more than ever as I, like many collectors, have adopted a "less is more" philosophy as I have found what works for me in terms of getting what I believe to be the best enjoyment/value quotient I can. I'm buying less, but cherishing what I get. The current state of things has been the catalyst for a sharper focus. Add into the equation that I've quite nearly run out of space, well that's just another variable that can contribute to creating a buyer's market. Not long ago it was definitely a seller's market. A good barometer for this are speculator sales. It would appear to me that speculators are no longer getting the prices they once were able to, another indicator of a buyer's market.

Joe

Very well said, Joe.
Perfect description of the situation as I see it.
Cheers!
Konrad

 

[HistoryfortheAges]

I believe it is a buyer's market now. Just by observing the numerous and changing strategies employed by manufacturers gives me that impression.

It is likely to become more of a buyer's market in coming years. Dramatic price increases have done serious damage to the 54mm to 60mm "matte" collectors market. I think more collectors are looking for alternatives or looking to the secondary market for cheaper pricing for basically the same quality of product. {eek3}

 

[cnq]

I believe it is a buyer's market now. Just by observing the numerous and changing strategies employed by manufacturers gives me that impression.

It is likely to become more of a buyer's market in coming years. Dramatic price increases have done serious damage to the 54mm to 60mm "matte" collectors market. I think more collectors are looking for alternatives or looking to the secondary market for cheaper pricing for basically the same quality of product. {eek3}

I agree with you. Or learn to paint figures...............

 

[desk11desk12]

I agree guy. It’s a buyers’ market in the secondary market.

I remember when figures were packed in 4/ box for $89 and vehicles for $99. The years (2006-2007) I think. Real wages haven't improved much in the USA since then has it?

I’d buy 6 boxes of toy soldiers and 4 tanks for $1,000 without “batting an eye”. It’s amazing how I found room in my closets for these new additions at these prices isn't it?

Now tanks are about $200-300 apiece and the same four figures would cost $180-220.

Today, I buy 1-2 figures and maybe a vehicle for $190 and call it a day spending $300.

Therefore today, I spend less ($300) compared to old days ($1000).

If I’m typical, then the industry will contract unless there are many new collectors coming into the market and not participating on the Forum.

What do you think?

BTW, anyone notice the real value Britains is offering with much improved figures between $30-32/ figure? It's good to be collecting ACW.

Carlos

 

[tdubel]

Interesting discussion and many spot on points by Joe and others.

One comment, it is a buyer's market unless it is an item I want...................^&grin In all seriousness, I am looking nowadays for some of the ultra rare Trophy, a lot of one off pieces and I am willing to pay a premium as I am adopting the less is more from the point that I am really enjoying the search and taking the plunge on some of my holy grails.

As for new stuff, I have adopted more discipline and become a bargain hunter. There are still some items that are a must, ie the New Figarti Desert Stuka. I stopped buying figure sets in WW2 about a year ago, it really has to be an interesting figure to grab me.

TD

 

[desk11desk12]

Interesting discussion and many spot on points by Joe and others.

One comment, it is a buyer's market unless it is an item I want...................^&grin In all seriousness, I am looking nowadays for some of the ultra rare Trophy, a lot of one off pieces and I am willing to pay a premium as I am adopting the less is more from the point that I am really enjoying the search and taking the plunge on some of my holy grails.

As for new stuff, I have adopted more discipline and become a bargain hunter. There are still some items that are a must, ie the New Figarti Desert Stuka. I stopped buying figure sets in WW2 about a year ago, it really has to be an interesting figure to grab me.

TD

Interesting....Me too. Except I don't collect Trophy.

There seems to be a consensus here with no push back from anyone yet.

Do you think this is good sample size of the collector market as a whole?

Hard to say but I wonder if any of the dealers or manufacturers will offer up an opinion?

Carlos

 

[Warrior]

It’s a buyers’ market in the secondary market.

I remember when figures were packed in 4/ box for $89 and vehicles for $99. The years (2006-2007) I think. Real wages haven't improved much in the USA since then has it?

I’d buy 6 boxes of toy soldiers and 4 tanks for $1,000 without “batting an eye”. It’s amazing how I found room in my closets for these new additions at these prices isn't it?

Now tanks are about $200-300 apiece and the same four figures would cost $180-220.

Today, I buy 1-2 figures and maybe a vehicle for $190 and call it a day spending $300.

Therefore today, I spend less ($300) compared to old days ($1000).

If I’m typical, then the industry will contract unless there are many new collectors coming into the market and not participating on the Forum.

What do you think?

It's a seller market too Carlos, it really depends on what it is that you are selling.

I bought a collection back in March, about 400 boxed sets from K & C, Conte, Britains, Collectors Showcase, Trophy, etc, etc, you name it, this collection had it.

As of today, I've got about 10 sets left.

As in ten.

I got my price on the others, prices weren't sky high, they weren't dirt cheap either.

Your experience is typical of any collector who's been in a particular hobby 5, 10, 15 plus years; at some point, you run out of room, perhaps your passion and enthusiasm is not what it used to be, you look bad on the "good old days" when boxed sets were 89.00, tanks were 99.00, etc, etc.

You're spending less these days; again, so are others who've been at this a long time, it's the nature of the beast. It's unrealistic to spend thousands of dollars a month year after year after year, at some point, spending decreases, how much can one collector actually collect unless that collector is selling chunks of his collection and replacing it with new items.

The shows I attend have never been stronger, mail order sales are great, new collectors are coming into the hobby all the time, I pick up several new customers every week it seems.

And no, they are not members of this forum.

Contraction? The US economy has been in the toilet since September of 2008 according to all the experts; in that amount of time, how many manufacturers have gone under? None that I am aware of.

How many dealers have gone under? Again, none that I am aware of, new ones are popping up actually, others are getting out due to retirement is all.

All the dealers I know and speak with say things are going great.

So there you go.

 

[desk11desk12]

Great hear George:

One of the most interesting points you made is that many of the new collectors are NOT on this Forum. If you're right then the Forum might be over represented by us old timers and may not be an accurate representation of the market. Or is it you just hustle more than most? How many shows a year do you do again a year?

Carlos

 

[Warrior]

Great hear George:

One of the most interesting points you made is that many of the new collectors are NOT on this Forum. If you're right then the Forum might be over represented by us old timers and may not be an accurate representation of the market. Or is it you just hustle more than most? How many shows a year do you do again a year?

Carlos

Nope, few if any of my newer customers are members here.

Or read what goes on here.

I attend about 20 shows a year, Matt from Hobby Bunker and Nicholas from Crown attend as many if not more than I do.

I get a lot of new customers coming to me via my website, my webmaster does a superb job of getting my name out there, he's a top shelf person who helps me a great deal with that.

I also attend shows off the grid other than toy soldier shows, there are collectors out there waiting to discover this hobby, all you have to do is introduce it to them.

Alex (Firebat) is on point regarding modelers, they are getting older too and are looking for other venues aside from model kits. A new customer of mine is creating an 8' by 5' Normandy diorama using K & C, Figarti, Collectors Showcase and Thomas Gunn Miniatures figures and vehicles, he's bought over 200 figures and 20 vehicles to this point, he's making the buildings, scenery, etc, etc, himself, he's weathering the figures and the vehicles as well, I met him at a show but was not a toy soldier show...................

 

[kogu]

I do believe, that we as members of this forum, who do post experiences and our feelings about the hobby on a regular basis, are a very tiny fraction of the entire customer range that the various mfrs. are catering to.
Since every now and then we have the privilege to enjoy the direct correspondence with a few of the owners of the various brands we are collecting, it often leads to the assumption that there is some kind of influence going out from this place.
I don't want to take away anything of the posting from many members, 'cause it is all too natural that a "Toy Soldier Forum" is of course the place where long-time and very experienced collectors meet.
But we never should forget that the "few" of us here are not the controlling majority for mfr's decisions.

For myself, since about 12 years now, I keep up a close watch on the Toy Soldier Hobby, and I am seriously convinced that at the current time we see a tremendous variety of good offers on the secondary market, so for me, compared to the last few years, it is what I would call the "buyer's time".
That is a very general observation, and might not count for the "one and only" item you are looking for to complete your collection. Those still might only come at a King's ransom ^&grin

But for the flexible buyer, someone who is not attached to only one mfr. for a certain era he collects, there are plenty opportunities out there for decent deals.

Cheers!

Konrad

 

[Jack]

I do believe, that we as members of this forum, who do post experiences and our feelings about the hobby on a regular basis, are a very tiny fraction of the entire customer range that the various mfrs. are catering to.
Since every now and then we have the privilege to enjoy the direct correspondence with a few of the owners of the various brands we are collecting, it often leads to the assumption that there is some kind of influence going out from this place.
I don't want to take away anything of the posting from many members, 'cause it is all too natural that a "Toy Soldier Forum" is of course the place where long-time and very experienced collectors meet.
But we never should forget that the "few" of us here are not the controlling majority for mfr's decisions.

For myself, since about 12 years now, I keep up a close watch on the Toy Soldier Hobby, and I am seriously convinced that at the current time we see a tremendous variety of good offers on the secondary market, so for me, compared to the last few years, it is what I would call the "buyer's time".
That is a very general observation, and might not count for the "one and only" item you are looking for to complete your collection. Those still might only come at a King's ransom ^&grin

But for the flexible buyer, someone who is not attached to only one mfr. for a certain era he collects, there are plenty opportunities out there for decent deals.

Cheers!

Konrad

Ditto! A good deal of the angst that is sometimes expressed about the hobby possibly eminates from an embarrassment of riches. I could double my collection on Saturday and still want more. I think my collecting will end when the endlessness of it overwhelms me.

Jack

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I agree guy. It’s a buyers’ market in the secondary market.

I remember when figures were packed in 4/ box for $89 and vehicles for $99. The years (2006-2007) I think. Real wages haven't improved much in the USA since then has it?

I’d buy 6 boxes of toy soldiers and 4 tanks for $1,000 without “batting an eye”. It’s amazing how I found room in my closets for these new additions at these prices isn't it?

Now tanks are about $200-300 apiece and the same four figures would cost $180-220.

Today, I buy 1-2 figures and maybe a vehicle for $190 and call it a day spending $300.

Therefore today, I spend less ($300) compared to old days ($1000).

If I’m typical, then the industry will contract unless there are many new collectors coming into the market and not participating on the Forum.

What do you think?

BTW, anyone notice the real value Britains is offering with much improved figures between $30-32/ figure? It's good to be collecting ACW.

Carlos

Carlos, I have a good number of the WWII sets from 2006-2007 with 4 figures per boxed set. I think I cherish these more than most as we will not see these type of boxed sets again. I also think our Hobby has its share of collectors
new and enthusiastic and those who move on to other things just as in any other hobby involving expensive collectibles. A hot new release in my own area of interest still brings a desire to acquire that item. Maybe not as much and as
fast as years past but, Toy Soldier boxes still make their way to my front door ^&grin

 

[Mitch]

Purely looking at it from say e-bay UK then its definitely a buyers market. I have picked up some items at a real cheap price and see many sets where sellers are pricing them at ''ye olden day'' prices when K&C used to be a second income for many. I see sets well priced in the US but again a few don't sell from what I have seen and see the same ones back time and again.

Not sure what that tells us as a fact but, high prices are not working using e-bay UK and that applies to the old items that used to do well. Look at newer sets with a higher price and they are lucky to get anywhere near the RRP

quite happy that we see less speculators making money out of collectors in the market so, that change will always be welcome for me.

Jack raised angst deriving from an embarassment of riches?? For me, the angst comes from the embarrassment of prices for the quality of product
Mitch

 

[Jack]

Purely looking at it from say e-bay UK then its definitely a buyers market. I have picked up some items at a real cheap price and see many sets where sellers are pricing them at ''ye olden day'' prices when K&C used to be a second income for many. I see sets well priced in the US but again a few don't sell from what I have seen and see the same ones back time and again.

Not sure what that tells us as a fact but, high prices are not working using e-bay UK and that applies to the old items that used to do well. Look at newer sets with a higher price and they are lucky to get anywhere near the RRP

quite happy that we see less speculators making money out of collectors in the market so, that change will always be welcome for me.

Jack raised angst deriving from an embarassment of riches?? For me, the angst comes from the embarrassment of prices for the quality of product
Mitch

Mitch

I actually said to my wife while I was typing that post that someone would say that - I guessed the exact phrase you would use too{sm4} If I could only turn this gift into a paying gig I would collect Arnhem!{sm4}

Jack

 

[Mitch]

you have used it a few times or similar so, it was time to comment. It just makes no sense to me that people moan when they have a surplus of choice they moan because products are poor or, are not accurate. There is a difference and, I have not seen anyone on here moan or make a statement because there is too much to buy.

Thanks for the answer to the question though
Mitch

Mitch

I actually said to my wife while I was typing that post that someone would say that - I guessed the exact phrase you would use too{sm4} If I could only turn this gift into a paying gig I would collect Arnhem!{sm4}

Jack

 

[The Military Workshop]

Great hear George:

One of the most interesting points you made is that many of the new collectors are NOT on this Forum. If you're right then the Forum might be over represented by us old timers and may not be an accurate representation of the market. Or is it you just hustle more than most? How many shows a year do you do again a year?

Carlos

Carlos,
I agree with the following comments by George :

"Your experience is typical of any collector who's been in a particular hobby 5, 10, 15 plus years; at some point, you run out of room, perhaps your passion and enthusiasm is not what it used to be, you look bad on the "good old days" when boxed sets were 89.00, tanks were 99.00, etc, etc.

You're spending less these days; again, so are others who've been at this a long time, it's the nature of the beast. It's unrealistic to spend thousands of dollars a month year after year after year, at some point, spending decreases, how much can one collector actually collect unless that collector is selling chunks of his collection and replacing it with new items".

Those that remember the $89 for 4 figure days constantly compare pricing that way whereas a new collector has no such reference point and is presumably happy to pay todays prices.

As a former figure kit seller I can compare with a metal figure kit in terms of value. 7/8 years ago I was selling an Andrea 54mm kit of a Roman General on a horse for A$119. Andrea USA are now selling WW2 54mm kits for US$23 and the party leader is $27. Current painted WW2/LAH figure prices compared to $23 or $27 for several pieces of unpainted metal seems not a bad comparison no matter which brand. Also 7/8 years ago when I was selling a K&C Wittman Tiger for about A$135 a good modeller quoted me A$250 for a completed Dragon 1/35 Tiger kit (included $55 cost of kit). K&C Tigers are still below that price.

The majority of my collectors would not be on this forum or even have looked. Some who have looked rarely keep up with what is going on. Fortunately the comments and impression given from some threads do not reflect the reality of what happens outside of the forum.

Brett