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[tdubel]

Although things have improved in the last fifty or so years, racism is a systemic problem in our society. It is our original sin, starting from the founding of this country and changing over the years from physical slavery to economic slavery, i.e., the legal doctrine of separate but equal (which was inherently unequal), restricting blacks people to ghettoes through practices such redlining and economic discrimination so that black people trying to improve themselves were unable to do so. To understand the pattern of economic discrimination and ghettoization that black people have been subject to, I suggest reading this excellent article by Ta Neshi Coates, https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ You may not agree with the notion of reparations but it's quite eye opening.

On top of this, it seems that black people are questioned about being in a certain place. The Starbucks case in Philadelphia is a well known one but just the other day, two men went to use the gym in their office building and were questioned about their right to be there. There is a pattern of microagressions that just seems to continue. The birder situation in New York City is a good example.

I don't think many of I (and many others) can understand how black people feel because I'm not black. The microagressions that they seem to be subject to don't happen to whites. Many of you might not like the Black Lives Matter movement but I believe many black people support it as providing a voice for their discontent. Movements like that just don't arise out of thin air.

We seen to be in a never ending cycle; when I was 17 in 1967 there were riots in Detroit and Newark. It seems like we are in a constant cycle, doomed to repeat itself. Something has to change.​

Brad
I am never going to agree with reparations for any group - we would literally to be fair be talking about African Americans, Native American Indians, Irish Americans, Jewish Americans, Italian Americans, Latinos of all Nations and more. I believe a case can be made that all of these groups have been treated inhumanely and unjustly in varying degrees as our Country has evolved into what it is today. Currently we import Latino Labor and then fight about Immigration? The whole cycle is idiotic and I have no idea how to fix it.

I don't pretend to ever put myself in someone's ethnicity or "shoes". I support all Colors of our nation, but I cannot understand or support any group that leads with violence. Black Lives Matters is just ONE group that does this. There are plenty of terrible groups of all colors that lead with violence. I will never understand that nor want to waste any time doing so.

I don't disagree with the cycle, as I believe I posted previously sadly in our lifetime this will continue to be in existence, that said, I still would like and will continue to believe that the majority of the people I meet, interact or learn from are not systemic racists. I have always given people the benefit of doubt regarding all issues, I don't "judge books by their cover" and I will continue to do so. It is a much more positive existence than the alternative. I guess for this facet of my life, I am an idealist.

TD

 

[marco55]

Anyone noticed that a sizeable proportion of the rioters/looters appear to be Caucasians?

Yes Antifa.

 

[Louis Badolato]

I am the last person in a position to express an opinion on this subject. As a retired mayor of a village (I stepped down in January, 2020 when I found out I needed a second back surgery) and as a fairly well-off white male, I have had nothing but good interactions with the police. I have always treated police officers with the utmost respect, and followed any instructions they gave me immediately and without question. In turn, the police officers I have interacted with have always treated me with courtesy and respect. The police officers in my community are terrific, and I rest easy every night knowing that they are protecting my family and myself.

That being said, I saw the video, and what the individuals wearing the badges and uniforms of police officers in that video (people who act like they did do not deserve the honor of being called "police officers") did (and failed to do) was so far beyond the pale, I doubt they could have found decency with a telescope.

Several forum members have questioned why the district attorneys or state attorneys with jurisdiction are hemming and hawing and failing to act to arrest and indict these individuals. The answer is as simple and pragmatic as it is unjust. Prosecutors rely almost completely on police officers for their careers. Any prosecutor who comes hard after any police officer, no matter what they have done, is going to have problems with the police officers he or she needs to rely upon to obtain the high conviction rate prosecutors need to advance their careers. No prosecutor I have come across in a 28-year legal career has ever been willing to place him or herself squarely on the other side of the "blue wall." As long as police officers accused of violence against minorities are prosecuted in State Courts, by the state and local prosecutors they work hand in hand with, rather than Federal Prosecutors on a "hate crime" theory, I believe this problem will be perpetuated.

 

[tdubel]

I am the last person in a position to express an opinion on this subject. As a retired mayor of a village (I stepped down in January, 2020 when I found out I needed a second back surgery) and as a fairly well-off white male, I have had nothing but good interactions with the police. I have always treated police officers with the utmost respect, and followed any instructions they gave me immediately and without question. In turn, the police officers I have interacted with have always treated me with courtesy and respect. The police officers in my community are terrific, and I rest easy every night knowing that they are protecting my family and myself.

That being said, I saw the video, and what the individuals wearing the badges and uniforms of police officers in that video (people who act like they did do not deserve the honor of being called "police officers") did (and failed to do) was so far beyond the pale, I doubt they could have found decency with a telescope.

Several forum members have questioned why the district attorneys or state attorneys with jurisdiction are hemming and hawing and failing to act to arrest and indict these individuals. The answer is as simple and pragmatic as it is unjust. Prosecutors rely almost completely on police officers for their careers. Any prosecutor who comes hard after any police officer, no matter what they have done, is going to have problems with the police officers he or she needs to rely upon to obtain the high conviction rate prosecutors need to advance their careers. No prosecutor I have come across in a 28-year legal career has ever been willing to place him or herself squarely on the other side of the "blue wall." As long as police officers accused of violence against minorities are prosecuted in State Courts, by the state and local prosecutors they work hand in hand with, rather than Federal Prosecutors on a "hate crime" theory, I believe this problem will be perpetuated.

Louis ,
I saw the officer was charged 3rd degree (Manslaughter). I believe that is probably the max charge they can bring right? 1st is Premeditated and 2nd is crime of passion? I am assuming they do not think they can get a conviction on 2nd degree?
Tom

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis ,
I saw the officer was charged 3rd degree (Manslaughter). I believe that is probably the max charge they can bring right? 1st is Premeditated and 2nd is crime of passion? I am assuming they do not think they can get a conviction on 2nd degree?
Tom

Tom,

Each State has different laws, and I am not familiar with the laws in question. Under New York law, the appropriate charge based on my view of the video is 2nd Degree Murder (intentional or depraved mind) or criminally negligent homicide.

 

[nysoldiers]

Rich,

I don't believe anywhere I have thought, posted or stated the police officers actions were civilized, I believe I stated the exact opposite, so not really sure your questions directed specifically toward me have any place in the post? Quite frankly, I find them distasteful with their insinuating tone.

Additionally, not sure where I am judging anyone other than outright Criminals of All Colors and I believe they should be judged - tried and convicted when guilty!

I don't care what group it is , if it advocates violence in anyway, I am not for that. It is flat out wrong, counterproductive and just idiotic in my mind. Violence doesn't solve a systemic problem. There is just no justification for that. These groups are counterproductive.

Advocacy groups - fully support and believe in them, have been a member of a number of them over the years. Good Positive Groups have resources to positively get things done. Violence is not needed. Black Lives Matter should really review there methods of operation, it would be a lot more positive. It is hard to "understand" any group or person who leads with violence.

The looting and rioting I saw in the brief snippets from Minneapolis left very little to try and understand. The marchers, YES, The Looters - NO. It was fairly easy to distinguish one from the other. I have no problems with marchers, protestors, etc. Looters, sorry, there is just no excuse for this behavior and I saw people of all colors doing it, they are simply common criminals and opportunists. They are not the people who need help.

I deal in solutions also, that is my way of thinking - that said - prosecuting criminals is part of that solution in a civilized society. If society tolerates violence, then we will never get to a solution. There are going to be more crimes committed by public figures who are supposed to protect us, unfortunately there are bad apples. They will be prosecuted and tried for their crimes, that is the solution we have. When these crimes occur, it is not a license for violent rioting, that has to be condemned and stopped or we will continue in this circle.

TD

Tom.
I never said that you thought the police actions were "civilized" I would never say or insinuate that about you. I was saying that some minority groups don't believe that our society is civilized when it comes to their lives and status as citizens. To solve problems we have to understand motives and the different perceptions people have about our society. Its all about empathy and learning. I have never justified the type of violence that we see in these protests with looting and burning. This is criminal activity. Some people are sociopaths or mentally disturbed in other ways. But I believe that most
behavior is either taught or symptomatic of a society's culture and values.

I'm going to excuse myself from this thread as there are too many emotions and misinterpretations going on. I am not smarter or better than anyone......I just have had different experiences in my life that have influenced my reactions and understandings.

 

[tdubel]

Tom.
I never said that you thought the police actions were "civilized" I would never say or insinuate that about you. I was saying that some minority groups don't believe that our society is civilized when it comes to their lives and status as citizens. To solve problems we have to understand motives and the different perceptions people have about our society. Its all about empathy and learning. I have never justified the type of violence that we see in these protests with looting and burning. This is criminal activity. Some people are sociopaths or mentally disturbed in other ways. But I believe that most
behavior is either taught or symptomatic of a society's culture and values.

I'm going to excuse myself from this thread as there are too many emotions and misinterpretations going on. I am not smarter or better than anyone......I just have had different experiences in my life that have influenced my reactions and understandings.

Rich

Thank you for the clarification and I don't disagree in anyway with the overall viewpoint and/or the fact that systemically we need to be better. I (personally) just can't empathize with opportunistic violence. I guess that is where my 2 sides clash - Idealist in thinking better of people, Realist when it comes to tolerance for violence.

No biggie, different viewpoints meet in solutions.

TD

 

[tdubel]

Tom,

Each State has different laws, and I am not familiar with the laws in question. Under New York law, the appropriate charge based on my view of the video is 2nd Degree Murder (intentional or depraved mind) or criminally negligent homicide.

Gotcha, you know I always was on my way to law school and got derailed by passing the CPA exam! I am always confused on 2nd vs 3rd , but based on your explanation in NY, I would also defer to 2nd.

Whatever it is , I am hopeful it is a guilty verdict with full sentencing allowed, just no excuse from the facts I have seen thus far.

TD

 

[nysoldiers]

Brad
I am never going to agree with reparations for any group - we would literally to be fair be talking about African Americans, Native American Indians, Irish Americans, Jewish Americans, Italian Americans, Latinos of all Nations and more. I believe a case can be made that all of these groups have been treated inhumanely and unjustly in varying degrees as our Country has evolved into what it is today. Currently we import Latino Labor and then fight about Immigration? The whole cycle is idiotic and I have no idea how to fix it.

I don't pretend to ever put myself in someone's ethnicity or "shoes". I support all Colors of our nation, but I cannot understand or support any group that leads with violence. Black Lives Matters is just ONE group that does this. There are plenty of terrible groups of all colors that lead with violence. I will never understand that nor want to waste any time doing so.

I don't disagree with the cycle, as I believe I posted previously sadly in our lifetime this will continue to be in existence, that said, I still would like and will continue to believe that the majority of the people I meet, interact or learn from are not systemic racists. I have always given people the benefit of doubt regarding all issues, I don't "judge books by their cover" and I will continue to do so. It is a much more positive existence than the alternative. I guess for this facet of my life, I am an idealist.

TD

OK i lied......one more comment. No "reparations" but investments into education, job training and health initiatives.
Other than the Native Americans who we really screwed the other groups who came here did so voluntarily not as slaves. How many Jews, Italians, Poles and others that I know only had to change their last names to assimilate as they were Caucasians. Some groups can't do this and are easy targets for discrimination and abuse. Racism comes from ignorance, fear and blame......It is taught not genetic.

 

[Warrior]

Brad
I am never going to agree with reparations for any group - we would literally to be fair be talking about Italian Americans...……………..

Hey, I'm all for it, reparate away; while you're at it, try and find out where my stimulation check is, my deceased uncle got one about two weeks ago and he passed away in April...………..explain to me how if he were still alive how he was going to use that dough to stimulate the economy from his bed in the nursing home.

What a broken toilet of an idea, beyond stupid.

 

[jazzeum]

Tom, I linked the article not to suggest reparations but for the economic policies and discrimination black people have faced, such as housing practices. It’s a long read but worth the time.

 

[tdubel]

OK i lied......one more comment. No "reparations" but investments into education, job training and health initiatives.
Other than the Native Americans who we really screwed the other groups who came here did so voluntarily not as slaves. How many Jews, Italians, Poles and others that I know only had to change their last names to assimilate as they were Caucasians. Some groups can't do this and are easy targets for discrimination and abuse. Racism comes from ignorance, fear and blame......It is taught not genetic.

Rich, I guess it depends on what group you are in! To me using modern norms, slavery is the most reprehensible thing IMO we did as a Nation from the 1700s to 1865 or so arguably.

I would advocate forefathers probably stole in a lot of cases Native lands, they just did, but again, the norms of exploration and conquer, this is what civilizations did. In today's norm, No.

Regarding other ethnicities, yes they immigrated here, some forced immigration for labor, but in general they came freely (to a point) but then they lived in Slums. Overtime, they rose out of poverty which is a good thing, but still looking back on some of the conditions, it was pretty bad and the expense was born by the human. I feel like sometimes, the importation of labor at very low wages is unethical, yet it happens every year. Why do we have Citizens unemployed, in a way, why are they not considered for those jobs? Not asking anyone in particular, they are questions that pop into my head.

Again, it is the 2 directions I am pulled in - the idealist in me doesn't understand why we import labor where our own unemployed could plug in. The realist in me knows why - Cheap labor, big business.

Hence the reason I included a lot of different ethnicities in my against reparation argument. I agree that money would be better served towards improving education and job training. In my own job, I see those monies that are earmarked for that abused and misdirected at all levels and forms of government. Another sad commentary.

 

[tdubel]

Tom, I linked the article not to suggest reparations but for the economic policies and discrimination black people have faced, such as housing practices. It’s a long read but worth the time.

Yup, another sad commentary on the whole issue. Black people have faced the horrors of it historically.

Honestly, right now, not a fun time to be in the USA, the COVID is just infuriating, frustrating and scary all at the same time. It also probably exacerbates a lot of other situations like MN (which again is just flat out a disgrace on all fronts).

That said, I am always grateful to be in the US versus numerous other parts of the world.

TD

 

[hotel3alpha]

All,

NY:

You kind sir are not leaving this thread. No sir! Any man who has the minerals to go "down south" during the 60's Jim Crow days has my respect. I won't go "down south" even today except for I-10. The last time I was there (Montgomery, Alabama) I went to the MLK monument, downtown and MLK's church on a Saturday. It was empty...eerily empty. NO visitors, tourist...nothing. Then on the way back we stopped at a Mini-Mart and I went to take a leak. On the wall was a flyer for tonights Klan Meeting...TONIGHT. Man, I couldn't get the hell out of there faster. That was in 2000 and I have never forgot it.

TD:

The simple phrase "X lives matter" is the epitome of "X" versus everyone else and that only "X" matters. Bad optics man and I have never like the name of the movement. I agree and understand the what the movement is about, but the I believe the message gets lost because of title because everyone matters.


JAZZ:

"microagressions" is a great word, description and explanation. Love it.

Louis:

Mr. Mayor that sucks that you had to have back surgery...twice and had to give up another term. I envy you not and I too share your respect for law enforcement. There are good cops out there, really, really good cops and this kind of mess does them no justice. Like I said before, one always has to be presumed innocent until proven guilty even if its filmed and speaking of film I say another video that had a different angle of George Floyds arrest. Behind the car were two other cops giving him the knee just as long as the filmed cop was. So, he was held down by three cops and GF had no chance. I just don't understand why nobody said "ENOUGH, WE DONE HERE OR STAND DOWN". They just kept on and killed him.

George:

For the love of God where is your check? This is just crazy that you have not received your check. I know its only $1200 smacks but c'mon man! Oh, and by the way, when we meet there WILL BE a BRO HUG. I don't care.

Moe:

Honestly, I didn't notice what color the looters were as I was more shocked at what I watching on TV during the riots. I shouldn't be as this happens practically happens every year. I just find it savage man to loot a pair of sneakers or a TV. What a weird mentality to have and the worst in human nature. Well, maybe not the worst as I am watching the Jeffrey Epstein Documentary on Netflix right now.

I think it was Oz who posted that computer graphic link on how fast the COVID is climbing the charts as the highest amount of caused deaths world wide. Watching that metric was horrifying, especially during March, April and May. Thank you for that link as I am going to show my kids that one.

I am so glad to see the protestors wearing masks and just regular people as well. Besides the riots and protesting that is a good sign to see people adhering to Virus protection and hopefully it will be the norm. In other words, people are getting past the vanity or inconvenience and doing it as second nature. Sooo:

Protest sign-CHECK
Phone charged-CHECK
Backpack with water and snacks-CHECK
Bullhorn-CHECK
Sunglasses-CHECK
Mask-CHECK

This is a good thing folks.

John from Texas

 

[hotel3alpha]

Yup, another sad commentary on the whole issue. Black people have faced the horrors of it historically.

Honestly, right now, not a fun time to be in the USA, the COVID is just infuriating, frustrating and scary all at the same time. It also probably exacerbates a lot of other situations like MN (which again is just flat out a disgrace on all fronts).

That said, I am always grateful to be in the US versus numerous other parts of the world.

TD

TD,

We are so lucky to be in the land of the big Cheeseburger, Philly Cheesesteak, or Fajita. We have it soooo good its not even funny. So, we are spoiled society (my opinion) and since we are endowed with inalienable rights we use them or abuse/justify our actions for EVERYTHING I swear. First thing that comes to mind is that guy who was screaming that wearing a mask was against his constitutional rights. Man, puh-lease. Sometimes I really think people take them for granted. A trip to some of the arm pits of the world will give you a new appreciation for our quality of life here in the US.

First thing that comes to mind is that guy who was screaming that wearing a mask was against his constitutional right.

John from Texas

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis:

Mr. Mayor that sucks that you had to have back surgery...twice and had to give up another term. I envy you not and I too share your respect for law enforcement. There are good cops out there, really, really good cops and this kind of mess does them no justice. Like I said before, one always has to be presumed innocent until proven guilty even if its filmed and speaking of film I say another video that had a different angle of George Floyds arrest. Behind the car were two other cops giving him the knee just as long as the filmed cop was. So, he was held down by three cops and GF had no chance. I just don't understand why nobody said "ENOUGH, WE DONE HERE OR STAND DOWN". They just kept on and killed him.


John from Texas

John,

Trust me, I didn't plan on running for another term. I never took a salary as mayor, and no one on my board took one either. It was elected volunteer work. I had a really terrific deputy mayor who throughout my battle with back problems was basically running things. The surgery just gave me an opportunity to gracefully bow out. That being said, back surgery most assuredly sucks! I do not recommend it. It has, however, allowed me to, for the most part, walk without a cane or a walker, and for that I am grateful.

I hope your wife gets well, and you, and all our friends on this forum make it through this Covid mess!

Your on-line friend,

Louis

 

[hotel3alpha]

John,

Trust me, I didn't plan on running for another term. I never took a salary as mayor, and no one on my board took one either. It was elected volunteer work. I had a really terrific deputy mayor who throughout my battle with back problems was basically running things. The surgery just gave me an opportunity to gracefully bow out. That being said, back surgery most assuredly sucks! I do not recommend it. It has, however, allowed me to, for the most part, walk without a cane or a walker, and for that I am grateful.

I hope your wife gets well, and you, and all our friends on this forum make it through this Covid mess!

Your on-line friend,

Louis

Thank you Louis and I absolutely fear anything spine related...ugh! No matter how much chemo the wife gets, she gets in my ***. Nothings changed, but she is a great cook and the love of my life and yes honey my side of closet is clean...yes the toilet seat is down...no I didn't wear my boots in the house (I did, but blamed the dogs)...yes I wore my mask at the store...yes my dirty laundry is in the basket and yes my socks are turned out correctly for washing...no I'm not in pantry looking for cookies...nothing has changed.

John from Texas

 

[GICOP]

One Hindu priests idea to stop Covid-19.................not recommended though

Indian priest beheads man as a sacrifice to a goddess in order to end coronavirus | Daily Mail Online

Stay safe

Martyn

 

[Warrior]

"

George:

For the love of God where is your check? This is just crazy that you have not received your check. I know its only $1200 smacks but c'mon man! Oh, and by the way, when we meet there WILL BE a BRO HUG. I don't care."

Not sure and my post was in my usual style, sarcastic; as I told you, IF I ever get one, it's getting donated to a charity...………….actually my youngest sister, who I am extremely close to, told me she's worried sick her hours at work are going to get cut, this on top of her being told by her landlord her rent is going up (imagine this turd RAISING rents during a worldwide pandemic), so if I get it, I think I'll give it to her, it will pay her rent and groceries for a month...………….poor kid...……………...and I'm all for a bro hug, pandemic be ****ed because that's how I roll baby!!
​

 

[Louis Badolato]

"

George:

For the love of God where is your check? This is just crazy that you have not received your check. I know its only $1200 smacks but c'mon man! Oh, and by the way, when we meet there WILL BE a BRO HUG. I don't care."

Not sure and my post was in my usual style, sarcastic; as I told you, IF I ever get one, it's getting donated to a charity...………….actually my youngest sister, who I am extremely close to, told me she's worried sick her hours at work are going to get cut, this on top of her being told by her landlord her rent is going up (imagine this turd RAISING rents during a worldwide pandemic), so if I get it, I think I'll give it to her, it will pay her rent and groceries for a month...………….poor kid...……………...and I'm all for a bro hug, pandemic be ****ed because that's how I roll baby!!
​

Taking care of your baby sister, nice. As I've said before, George, you are a stand up guy!:salute::