COVID the 3rd (1 Viewer)

[OzDigger]

You are correct Damian "Health care resources are not infinite".

That is the main reason the restrictions were put in place. Otherwise more people would have died.

However you are Incorrect in your assertion that "We treat all diseases the same way".

Some diseases are more infectious than others, they tend to be treated differently to other diseases. And diseases that threaten Females tend to attract more media and political attention than those that only affect Males.

You also suggested Covid19 has a relatively low mortality rate. If you were in a higher risk age group you may have a different opinion.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that those that suggest we have overreacted are younger guys. They're trying to kill us older people, it's a conspiracy {eek3}

 

[Combat]

My attitude is a pragmatic one

Yes we have a pandemic

Yes it is a problem

Yes there are high risk groups

We treat all diseases the same way

We identify and protect high risk groups.

We then direct our efforts st those groups

In this case the elderly and those with comorbidities

We do not close down the whole world

Millions of surgeries have been cancelled or delayed because of COVID.

This also causes morbidity and even mortality

Other chronic diseases have ben ignored to focus on COVID

Lots of resources have been diverted from other important diseases to treat a disease with a relatively low mortality rate

Health care resources are not infinite

If we divert some to this problem we take away resources from other worthwhile causes.

In addition destroying livelihoods directly impacts on health outcomes all around the globe

We have an example here of health policy being driven by media both social media and main stream media.

That is not good.

These resource allocation decisions are part and parcel of health policy

You cannot simply be driven by the media

There has been a lot of misinformation and politicizing in the media but the severity of the problem is quite stark. Five of the top ten deadliest days in ALL of American history have happened in the first two weeks of December. There were more single day deaths from the virus on those days than on D-Day, 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. More total American deaths than in the entirety of WWII. That is mind boggling. Fewer American died in the entirety of WWII than from the virus in just this year alone.

 

[The Military Workshop]

I don't follow the US statistics in great detail other than the total which is very high. However a few months ago the CDC said the actual number dying of Covid, as opposed to with Covid, was less than 10%. This counting method was used in VIC here where they have had about 90% of all cases in Oz. in Oz the great majority of deaths have been aged over 80 and in aged care homes. I have seen articles mentioning family saying cause of death was not Covid but long term cancer etc. In America have the causes of death such as cancer and heart issues, in those over 80, been less this year as now counting as Covid?

If as suggested the virus is within the population at a greater level than generally thought then this means the fatality rate is much lower.

One issue that has irritated me is inconsistencies in restrictions. For example we had a major sporting event (coincidentally a few days before an election) with 52,000 people when there were limits on funerals and weddings and seating in other venues etc. The most ridiculous one I have seen was the LA cafe/pub which went viral. Owner spent money to set up outdoor dining with spacing etc only to be told shortly after had to close it. Then next day an area 2-3 X her outdoor dining area is set up by a movie studio caterer just a few feet away from hers. It clearly showed there was one rule for the big guys and one for the small businesses. Likewise you have not one civil servant who has suffered financial loss but many in private business have lost everything due to restrictions.

Like Damian I believe the economic impact and concentration on resources in one area is an issue. In Qld we had hospitals half emptied to make way for the flood that never happened. ICU's were hardly troubled but that is not the impression you got from the media. Not only that many operations and other preventative measures for other medical issues were delayed significantly.I emphasise where I am has been nowhere near the level of other places such as US/UK.

 

[Desertkiwi]

My attitude is a pragmatic one

Yes we have a pandemic

Yes it is a problem

Yes there are high risk groups

We treat all diseases the same way

We identify and protect high risk groups.

We then direct our efforts st those groups

In this case the elderly and those with comorbidities

We do not close down the whole world

Millions of surgeries have been cancelled or delayed because of COVID.

This also causes morbidity and even mortality

Other chronic diseases have ben ignored to focus on COVID

Lots of resources have been diverted from other important diseases to treat a disease with a relatively low mortality rate

Health care resources are not infinite

If we divert some to this problem we take away resources from other worthwhile causes.

In addition destroying livelihoods directly impacts on health outcomes all around the globe

We have an example here of health policy being driven by media both social media and main stream media.

That is not good.

These resource allocation decisions are part and parcel of health policy

You cannot simply be driven by the media

This IMO would have to be the most logical, pragmatic post in the entire thread.

Its also the same message a growing number of highly experienced health professionals have been repeating from around the world throughout the crisis, but who have either largely been ignored by the media or worse still, ridiculed and marginalised by people who have no idea what their talking about or those pushing a certain agenda.

Thank you for posting your comments Damian they are both refreshing and timely.

 

[Desertkiwi]

I don't follow the US statistics in great detail other than the total which is very high. However a few months ago the CDC said the actual number dying of Covid, as opposed to with Covid, was less than 10%. This counting method was used in VIC here where they have had about 90% of all cases in Oz. in Oz the great majority of deaths have been aged over 80 and in aged care homes. I have seen articles mentioning family saying cause of death was not Covid but long term cancer etc. In America have the causes of death such as cancer and heart issues, in those over 80, been less this year as now counting as Covid?

If as suggested the virus is within the population at a greater level than generally thought then this means the fatality rate is much lower.

One issue that has irritated me is inconsistencies in restrictions. For example we had a major sporting event (coincidentally a few days before an election) with 52,000 people when there were limits on funerals and weddings and seating in other venues etc. The most ridiculous one I have seen was the LA cafe/pub which went viral. Owner spent money to set up outdoor dining with spacing etc only to be told shortly after had to close it. Then next day an area 2-3 X her outdoor dining area is set up by a movie studio caterer just a few feet away from hers. It clearly showed there was one rule for the big guys and one for the small businesses. Likewise you have not one civil servant who has suffered financial loss but many in private business have lost everything due to restrictions.

Like Damian I believe the economic impact and concentration on resources in one area is an issue. In Qld we had hospitals half emptied to make way for the flood that never happened. ICU's were hardly troubled but that is not the impression you got from the media. Not only that many operations and other preventative measures for other medical issues were delayed significantly.I emphasise where I am has been nowhere near the level of other places such as US/UK.

The lockdowns here in NZ have been hugely damaging, both socially and economically and the hurt is on going. While our leader is continuously praised both here and overseas, the true impact of our lockdowns and continued isolation from the rest of the world is only now beginning to bite.

While it could be argued that our low death rate (25x) and only about 2100x covid infected cases are a direct result of the country being locked down. The decision has destroyed our tourist industry and driven many companies out of business while clocking up billions in debt that will burden the country for at least a generation. What's more the annual flu and road toll far exceeds any projected covid deaths even if our boarders had remained only. The logic is incredibly difficult to fathom, let alone understand how the public has allowed itself here to be railroaded into such madness.

 

[Louis Badolato]

The lockdowns here in NZ have been hugely damaging, both socially and economically and the hurt is on going. While our leader is continuously praised both here and overseas, the true impact of our lockdowns and continued isolation from the rest of the world is only now beginning to bite.

While it could be argued that our low death rate (25x) and only about 2100x covid infected cases are a direct result of the country being locked down. The decision has destroyed our tourist industry and driven many companies out of business while clocking up billions in debt that will burden the country for at least a generation. What's more the annual flu and road toll far exceeds any projected covid deaths even if our boarders had remained only. The logic is incredibly difficult to fathom, let alone understand how the public has allowed itself here to be railroaded into such madness.

Your country locked down, you have 25 Covid related deaths nationwide, 2100 Covid cases, your hospitals are not overwhelmed with Covid patients in ICU, but your economy is in the tank. The United States didn't lock down, we just passed 300,000 Covid related deaths nationwide, 14,000,000+ Covid cases, our hospitals are overwhelmed with Covid patients in ICU, and our ecomony is in the tank. Who did a better job with the virus, you tell me?

About 3,000 Americans die from Covid every day. That is more per day than died on 9-11. We have lost more people to Covid this year than we lost during the entirety of World War II. We are fast approaching 500,000 deaths, the number of Americans that died from the infamous Spanish Influenza epidemic in 1918. I can certainly understand how residents of a nation that had a total of 25 Covid related deaths could see this is being overblown, but I personally know 4 people my age (52) or YOUNGER who died from Covid, and my dear friend's 15 year old son is hospitalized with "Covid Fugue," grand mal seizures resulting from infection with the Covid Virus. My 15 year old son has pulmonary issues, and is high risk. Respectfully, the whole world's economy can go in the tank before I risk my son's life.

They will start innoculating medical providers and other high risk people in a day or two, and we are 3-6 months away from everyone having vaccine that can hopefully end this pandemic. While our economies are suffering, and our nations will be incurring tremendous deficits as a result, the United States has already incurred a greater than 6-Trillion Dollar Deficit since the budget was balanced during Clinton's second term, mostly from our military actions in the Middle East intended to protect the United States from terrorism. If we can saddle our children with 6-Trillion Dollars of debt over safety from terrorism, why is adding to the debt to protect ourselves from Covid any different?

I don't claim to be any kind of medical expert, and it is very possible that the group of physicians who believe that isolation is not the correct approach to handling Covid will be proven correct, but for now, I am willing to isolate, socially distance and wear a mask until May or June, 2021, when we can all have access to the vaccine. Once we are innoculated, and Covid is a bad memory, with a little luck, our economies will recover. Until then, regardless of your approach to Covid, I hope we, and our loved ones, all remain healthy and safe.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Your country locked down, you have 25 Covid related deaths nationwide, 2100 Covid cases, your hospitals are not overwhelmed with Covid patients in ICU, but your economy is in the tank. The United States didn't lock down, we just passed 300,000 Covid related deaths nationwide, 14,000,000+ Covid cases, our hospitals are overwhelmed with Covid patients in ICU, and our ecomony is in the tank. Who did a better job with the virus, you tell me?

About 3,000 Americans die from Covid every day. That is more per day than died on 9-11. We have lost more people to Covid this year than we lost during the entirety of World War II. We are fast approaching 500,000 deaths, the number of Americans that died from the infamous Spanish Influenza epidemic in 1918. I can certainly understand how residents of a nation that had a total of 25 Covid related deaths could see this is being overblown, but I personally know 4 people my age (52) or YOUNGER who died from Covid, and my dear friend's 15 year old son is hospitalized with "Covid Fugue," grand mal seizures resulting from infection with the Covid Virus. My 15 year old son has pulmonary issues, and is high risk. Respectfully, the whole world's economy can go in the tank before I risk my son's life.

They will start innoculating medical providers and other high risk people in a day or two, and we are 3-6 months away from everyone having vaccine that can hopefully end this pandemic. While our economies are suffering, and our nations will be incurring tremendous deficits as a result, the United States has already incurred a greater than 6-Trillion Dollar Deficit since the budget was balanced during Clinton's second term, mostly from our military actions in the Middle East intended to protect the United States from terrorism. If we can saddle our children with 6-Trillion Dollars of debt over safety from terrorism, why is adding to the debt to protect ourselves from Covid any different?

I don't claim to be any kind of medical expert, and it is very possible that the group of physicians who believe that isolation is not the correct approach to handling Covid will be proven correct, but for now, I am willing to isolate, socially distance and wear a mask until May or June, 2021, when we can all have access to the vaccine. Once we are innoculated, and Covid is a bad memory, with a little luck, our economies will recover. Until then, regardless of your approach to Covid, I hope we, and our loved ones, all remain healthy and safe.

Louis, I could say much in response, not least of all our countries are vastly different with NZs population only being 5 million opposed to the US being over 400 million.

You may be surprised but our personal situations are probably not dissimilar in a variety of ways. I have lost close friends recently and spent a number of weeks in hospital helping to care for my seriously ill son.

As a long time member of the forum I’ve engaged with many collectors over the years and gained many long distance friends, many in the US.

While our opinions may differ greatly, I also have respect and out of curtesy will refrain from further comment.

Kindest regards.

 

[TomNT]

Hi all

Here’s some more info on ways to combat Covid-19

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq8SXOBy-4w&feature=share

This is a very good video about the drug Ivermectin being effective against Covid19. The doctor talks about it in a recent US Senate hearing. It's safe, cheap and been around for years. Why is there a need for a rushed and potentially unsafe vaccine when there are therapeutics such as this drug and Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) that can cure people? Before you rubbish these drugs and believe the fake news media and corrupt google fact checkers, scientists, doctors, clinical trials and peer reviewed studies have verified that HCQ is very effective against Covid-19 when used early in low doses and in conjunction with Zinc and an antibiotic (triple therapy the medical experts call it). You can learn more about HCQ from links I posted previously. The Ivermectin vid link is only 10 minutes long.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=aIvRR_y5i-k&feature=share

This is a good vid from Dr Campbell, he talks about the benefits of Zinc potentially being beneficial in combating Covid19. The vid is 22 minutes long.

Tom

 

[The Military Workshop]

Your country locked down, you have 25 Covid related deaths nationwide, 2100 Covid cases, your hospitals are not overwhelmed with Covid patients in ICU, but your economy is in the tank. The United States didn't lock down, we just passed 300,000 Covid related deaths nationwide, 14,000,000+ Covid cases, our hospitals are overwhelmed with Covid patients in ICU, and our ecomony is in the tank. Who did a better job with the virus, you tell me?

Louis, As I indicate in my posts situation here in Oz and also NZ quite different from US and Europe. Being far away and islands we had a major advantage when it came to preventing the virus getting around. The main weapon was basically cutting off international travel. With the exception of VIC the virus went down in numbers fairly quickly. I can understand many of the restrictions in US but here some have been over the top and probably based on what was happening in Italy early on which simply never happened. After a few months it was clear we were not going to be like Italy or NY. As an example of differences in restrictions Aussies cant travel to NZ but NZers can travel to Oz. Those NZers presumably can travel back to NZ. Tourism is a major income earner for NZ since many go there to count sheep and look at Hobbit culture ^&grin

On an unrelated subject, does anybody know if Zombies can fly airplanes or swim long distances {sm2}

Anyway all the best to our US and European forum mates during this difficult time.

 

[Combat]

At long last, the vaccine is rolling out in the US today! Hopefully that is the beginning of the end of this disaster. A few more months and things will turn the corner. The rollout of the vaccine seems to be well organized. With more to come once the Moderna vaccine is approved.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis, I could say much in response, not least of all our countries are vastly different with NZs population only being 5 million opposed to the US being over 400 million.

You may be surprised but our personal situations are probably not dissimilar in a variety of ways. I have lost close friends recently and spent a number of weeks in hospital helping to care for my seriously ill son.

As a long time member of the forum I’ve engaged with many collectors over the years and gained many long distance friends, many in the US.

While our opinions may differ greatly, I also have respect and out of curtesy will refrain from further comment.

Kindest regards.

Toddy,

I respect everyone's opinion on this forum, and just because I view Covid from a different perspective, I certainly don't want you to refrain from expressing yours. I consider the forum members all friends, and Tom, who shares your skeptical opinion of Covid, happens to be a good friend who has stayed at my home while visiting the United States. I did not intend expressing my opinion as a rebuke of yours, or anyone else's opinion. As I mentioned, I am no medical expert, and your opinion, based on the statements of medical experts who disagree with the mainstream approach, may turn out to be scientifically correct in the end. I am going to continue to err on the side of caution, primarily out of concern for the health of my 15 year old son. When my close friend's son, who was healthy as a horse and had no co-morbidiities or high-risk factors, contracted Covid and ended up with "Covid Fugue" seizures, it was a real shock to me. That, in combination with four people I know well passing away has made me very conservative in my approach to the virus. I sincerely hope that we, and our all loved ones, make it though to the end of Covid, and can discuss this over drinks one day from an academic perspective. I'm buying, my friend!:salute::

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis, As I indicate in my posts situation here in Oz and also NZ quite different from US and Europe. Being far away and islands we had a major advantage when it came to preventing the virus getting around. The main weapon was basically cutting off international travel. With the exception of VIC the virus went down in numbers fairly quickly. I can understand many of the restrictions in US but here some have been over the top and probably based on what was happening in Italy early on which simply never happened. After a few months it was clear we were not going to be like Italy or NY. As an example of differences in restrictions Aussies cant travel to NZ but NZers can travel to Oz. Those NZers presumably can travel back to NZ. Tourism is a major income earner for NZ since many go there to count sheep and look at Hobbit culture ^&grin

On an unrelated subject, does anybody know if Zombies can fly airplanes or swim long distances {sm2}

Anyway all the best to our US and European forum mates during this difficult time.

Tom has told me about how the Australian government's restrictions went beyond the bounds of what is expected of civil liberty in a democratic society, and not being present to see the abuses in person, I can only shake my head and express sympathy. Not speaking to the more extreme methods he informed me of, which did sound draconian, I think closing your borders was an excellent idea. While it certainly damaged your economy, it clearly nipped Covid in the bud in your nations. Assuming (admittedly optomistically) that the vaccine does to Covid what Jonas Salk's vaccine did to Polio, by this time next year, Covid will be a bad memory, and hopefully we will all be on the way to an economic recovery.

 

[marco55]

Yeah until something else escapes from China.:rolleyes2:
Mark

 

[OzDigger]

A suspected more infectious Sars-Cov-2 virus variant causes increased lockdown in parts of UK.

[video]https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-15/new-covid-19-variant-discovered-in-uk-but-vaccines-should-work/12986056[/video]

 

[Panzer ace]

I am not trying to make lite of the situation but the current roll out of the vaccine in the US coupled with the massive amount of death that is running parallel with it reminds me of the film Fury and a quote from Wardaddy:

“I started this war killing Germans in Africa. Then France. Then Belgium. Now I'm killing Germans in Germany. It will end, soon. But before it does, a lot more people gotta die.”

 

[marco55]

Did not the CDC say lockdowns were more harmful than helpful.There's a hidden agenda going on here.
Mark

 

[jazzeum]

The Moderna vaccine is expected to be approved by the end of this week or early next with distribution next week.

I’m hearing from sources that people in my age group could be vaccinated by late January or early February with the timeline for all groups being accordingly accelerated.

 

[Warrior]

My cousin the conspiracy theorist today told me a friend of his who's a Pharmacist is reporting both the sale and distribution of Tamiflu is way, way down so far this year................my cousin thinks it's because flu cases are being reported as COVID cases.

Umm.......what?

If you have flu like symptoms and get tested and it's positive, it's a COVID case, if it's negative, it's the flu.

His reply "Well there are loads of false positives, so flu cases are being reported as COVID cases"............................

I told him "maybe the reason flu cases are way down is masks + gloves + hand sanitizer + hand washing = fewer flu cases"

He disagrees.

I just can't deal with him anymore, I just can't..............................SLAM/SLAM/SLAM/SLAM............that's the noise my skull makes when I get done talking to him and it is bouncing off of my sheetrock around the house.

 

[OzDigger]

LMAO George, you're a funny guy ^&cool

 

[jazzeum]

My cousin the conspiracy theorist today told me a friend of his who's a Pharmacist is reporting both the sale and distribution of Tamiflu is way, way down so far this year................my cousin thinks it's because flu cases are being reported as COVID cases.

Umm.......what?

If you have flu like symptoms and get tested and it's positive, it's a COVID case, if it's negative, it's the flu.

His reply "Well there are loads of false positives, so flu cases are being reported as COVID cases"............................

I told him "maybe the reason flu cases are way down is masks + gloves + hand sanitizer + hand washing = fewer flu cases"

He disagrees.

I just can't deal with him anymore, I just can't..............................SLAM/SLAM/SLAM/SLAM............that's the noise my skull makes when I get done talking to him and it is bouncing off of my sheetrock around the house.

Sales are probably down because the flu is probably down because people are staying away from one another, thus reducing the chances for transmission. Of course, you could ask why are flu cases down when Covid cases are way up. My unscientific answer is that one is easily transmitted, the other not as much.