First Legion vs. King&Country (1 Viewer)

[kilted vampire]

I initially avoided this thread as it just seemed the same old thing; "What's better?" Guys are always going to compare stuff. That is why there were the Crusades. The reasons for this phenomenon are many fold. One of the reasons could be a general interest in conversation. These are generally good humoured. Then another based on insecurity, these not so light hearted. some people wish to be reassured that their decision to buy was the right choice ergo "the more the merrier".

This can go on but why? Manufacturers do things differently. Sometimes someone sees a better way to do something. Is it really? Or, is it just different? As I stated before I try to stay out of these threads except to try and moderate. Why? Because this type of thread as Maddadicus stated tears forums apart. Good friends start picking at each other over different paint strokes? This place is a home, a haven to me. Quit it! I do not like being in between two or more people I like over something as trivial as a toy soldier

 

[IXEC]

I initially avoided this thread as it just seemed the same old thing; "What's better?" Guys are always going to compare stuff. That is why there were the Crusades. The reasons for this phenomenon are many fold. One of the reasons could be a general interest in conversation. These are generally good humoured. Then another based on insecurity, these not so light hearted. some people wish to be reassured that their decision to buy was the right choice ergo "the more the merrier".

This can go on but why? Manufacturers do things differently. Sometimes someone sees a better way to do something. Is it really? Or, is it just different? As I stated before I try to stay out of these threads except to try and moderate. Why? Because this type of thread as Maddadicus stated tears forums apart. Good friends start picking at each other over different paint strokes? This place is a home, a haven to me. Quit it! I do not like being in between two or more people I like over something as trivial as a toy soldier

OOOOOOOOh.....Kay

 

[damian]

The Soviet knew every detail of the German Kursk offensive.

Hitler had a MAJOR ROLE in ALL war operation from late Aug. 1941 to the end.

General Guderian had a convenient memory. His diaries, those that have been see by historians, tell a different story than the " cookie cutter history " that your use to reading.

The whole Eastern Front War is being " reviewed " by Russian Historians. These reviewers now have the advantage of formerly classified Soviet Archives.

If the Western Media allows the truth to be published ( accepted ), revelations about what really happened on the Eastern Front will be Revolutionary to the real causes of World War II.

I doubt very much, if the new revelation will be adopted in or by the Western press.

Napoleon once said all history is a lie, agreed apon by committee.

In what way do you expect the new archives to revolutionize our understanding of why WWII started?

 

[Shannon Reuss]

I moved this thread over to General Toy Soldier Discussion since it seemed to fit better there.

I have it on the authority of both persons involved that the sparring side conversation in this thread is over and done, and as long as those of you wishing to debate which country committed the worst atrocities in WWII can keep it civil I see no reason why this thread can't continue.

I also appreciate those of you who have attempted to bring peace back to this thread--moderating is done best by members policing themselves although of course mods will step in when necessary.

The best and most direct way to voice your opinion if you think a post is offensive, objectionable or illegal is to use the 'report a post' link which alerts the mods in an email with a direct link to the post in question. If you are grumbling that you feel someone is 'allowed to say whatever they want' but you never point out a post you feel is objectionable then you are contributing to the problem.

Carry on...

 

[OzDigger]

Although i have read plenty of books on the eastern front and find it fascinating.
I,ve never regarded the Russians as being on our team as it where in WW2 ,
I think if hitler haden,t attacked them they would have happily continued to expand their territorys at others expence until they ran out of places to go .
So although they ended up being a major player in the Nazis downfall I just dont [whether right or wrong] give them the same credit as other nations.

I am sure there are plenty of forum members that agree with you, including myself. And I suspect that this feeling amongst collectors contributed to the poor sale of Russian figures and vehicles that K & C produced for a while.

 

[IXEC]

In what way do you expect the new archives to revolutionize our understanding of why WWII started?

Read the works of these writers:

German , Wolfgang Strauss

French Scholar, Stephane Courtois

Russian , Viktor Suvorov I believe his pen name is Vladimir Rezun his book titled " Icebreaker " has been written in English

German historian Joachim Hoffmann's work " Stalin's War of Extermination 1941 - 45 "

American Professor Richard Raack works

These historians and an open mind is a start, that's all I'll say.

 

[FirstLegion]

I am not arguing that the Russians were not aware of the German plan, just that their intel wasn't all via the Lucy Ring. As Patton demonstrated at Lorraine, it is one thing to know about an enemy's plan, countering it is the hard part.

To say that "Hitler had a MAJOR ROLE in ALL war operation from late Aug. 1941 to the end" is too broad a statement and certainly not relevant to Operation Zitadelle.

All senior military officers have convenient memories to some degree, but most historians say Guderian was usually honest and reliable.

I have no idea what "cookie cutter" history means, but I can say that my references are standard works.

Those Russians have been fond of "revolutionary work" for some time I looked forward to seeing any new information if and when it's published.

Now that this thread has been moved, I'll go ahead and comment on it a bit, at least the historical parts.

Hitler most certainly did have a major impact on Kursk. Not so much in the operational planning, but Hitler was presented with two courses of action by Manstein (if i remember correctly) and he chose Citadel as the other was defensively based. However, he was told that Citadel would only work if it was launched immediately and then Hitler decided to delay the start date of the operation for several months to early July, by which time the Russians had so heavily fortified the salient that the offensive was doomed before it was launched. So Hitler definitely bears a lot of the responsibility for the disaster at Kursk. Hitler from a very early stage in the entire eastern front campaign meddled in the affairs of the strategic planning and is in large part responsible for the failure of the campaign in the east. Case in point is the 42 campaign where he insisted on trying to both seize Stalingrad and the Caucausus simultaneously instead of sequentially as the original plan called for. The result was the German forces were inadequate to seize either and were left dangerously exposed to counterattack. We all know the result.

As for you Ozdigger and what you will collect and not collect, if the Eastern Front is too brutal a war for you to collect, then by all means, don't collect it. But don't mislead yourself into thinking that the war was neat and clean anywhere else - it was brutal everywhere. It was just more brutal on the eastern front as the overall scale of the campaign dwarfed everything else and there were issue of race that further played into the heightening of the brutality, mainly beacuse the nazis saw the slavic people as subhuman an initiated not a campaign of conquest, but a campaign of extermination. However, I would also point out that it is the absolute height of hypocrisy to refuse to collect Eastern Front figures but to collect these same Nazis who were pretty much the direct cause/instigators for all of the brutality on the Eastern Front. I also find it interesting that you won't collect Hitler Youth as if somehow standing by this one principle is drawing a line. Personally, I think it's strange that you'd collect the people who manipulate children into fighting and dying for a lost cause, but somehow hold something against the children themselves.

For me personally, I have no problem with any of it and am clearly able to separate what is a toy soldier and meant to be displayed and visually enjoyed versus what those people might actually represent.
Just my .02.

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

 

[Combat]

I don't quite follow the logic that the Russians were bad guys therefore collectors won't buy them. The Germans are the top sellers according to everything I have read and they were bad guys. Even assuming we agree that Russians were evil, what the sam hill does that matter? Are we boycotting Stalin? He's dead. My guess is they don't sell well because many collectors are Private Ryan historians with an almost complete ignorance of the eastern front. The irony is that toy soldier dollars go to commie China. If you want to make a political issue of this hobby stop buying any of them.

 

[vandilay]

I am sure there are plenty of forum members that agree with you, including myself. And I suspect that this feeling amongst collectors contributed to the poor sale of Russian figures and vehicles that K & C produced for a while.

Oz , It would be interesting to know what constitues poor sales I guess,
but speaking purely for myself I only have ltd space and $$$ so i,d rather
spend my money on British /commonwealth / US soldiers and a few Germans for opposition .
The Russian army just doesnt push my collecting button as it where, but
for the guys who have been holding out for the Ruski,s it looks like
happy days could be on the way ?

 

[nasirkasmani]

Hitler most certainly did have a major impact on Kursk. Not so much in the operational planning, but Hitler was presented with two courses of action by Manstein (if i remember correctly) and he chose Citadel as the other was defensively based. However, he was told that Citadel would only work if it was launched immediately and then Hitler decided to delay the start date of the operation for several months to early July, by which time the Russians had so heavily fortified the salient that the offensive was doomed before it was launched. So Hitler definitely bears a lot of the responsibility for the disaster at Kursk. Hitler from a very early stage in the entire eastern front campaign meddled in the affairs of the strategic planning and is in large part responsible for the failure of the campaign in the east. Case in point is the 42 campaign where he insisted on trying to both seize Stalingrad and the Caucausus simultaneously instead of sequentially as the original plan called for. The result was the German forces were inadequate to seize either and were left dangerously exposed to counterattack. We all know the result.

its gratifying that a ww2 manufacturer reads WW2 history in depth.

 

[IXEC]

its gratifying that a ww2 manufacturer reads WW2 history in depth.

Yes and as such would very likely get their product details CORRECT.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Cannot resist.

AWESOME!!!!!! That is by far the best comment on this entire thread!!!!

 

[nasirkasmani]

AWESOME!!!!!! That is by far the best comment on this entire thread!!!!

in case anyone misses it, Andanna puts a jpeg of an idiom -

Beating A Dead Horse

meaning - To repeatedly bring up a particular topic with no chance of affecting the outcome.

to be honest though, with the incoming releases, i thought sooner or later either camps have to concede.

 

[OzDigger]

Now that this thread has been moved, I'll go ahead and comment on it a bit, at least the historical parts.

Hitler most certainly did have a major impact on Kursk. Not so much in the operational planning, but Hitler was presented with two courses of action by Manstein (if i remember correctly) and he chose Citadel as the other was defensively based. However, he was told that Citadel would only work if it was launched immediately and then Hitler decided to delay the start date of the operation for several months to early July, by which time the Russians had so heavily fortified the salient that the offensive was doomed before it was launched. So Hitler definitely bears a lot of the responsibility for the disaster at Kursk. Hitler from a very early stage in the entire eastern front campaign meddled in the affairs of the strategic planning and is in large part responsible for the failure of the campaign in the east. Case in point is the 42 campaign where he insisted on trying to both seize Stalingrad and the Caucausus simultaneously instead of sequentially as the original plan called for. The result was the German forces were inadequate to seize either and were left dangerously exposed to counterattack. We all know the result.

As for you Ozdigger and what you will collect and not collect, if the Eastern Front is too brutal a war for you to collect, then by all means, don't collect it. But don't mislead yourself into thinking that the war was neat and clean anywhere else - it was brutal everywhere. It was just more brutal on the eastern front as the overall scale of the campaign dwarfed everything else and there were issue of race that further played into the heightening of the brutality, mainly beacuse the nazis saw the slavic people as subhuman an initiated not a campaign of conquest, but a campaign of extermination. However, I would also point out that it is the absolute height of hypocrisy to refuse to collect Eastern Front figures but to collect these same Nazis who were pretty much the direct cause/instigators for all of the brutality on the Eastern Front. I also find it interesting that you won't collect Hitler Youth as if somehow standing by this one principle is drawing a line. Personally, I think it's strange that you'd collect the people who manipulate children into fighting and dying for a lost cause, but somehow hold something against the children themselves.

For me personally, I have no problem with any of it and am clearly able to separate what is a toy soldier and meant to be displayed and visually enjoyed versus what those people might actually represent.

Just my .02.

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

This is the strangest post from a toy soldier manufacturer that I have ever read, and I have read a few strange ones over the years No doubt the impending release of the new range has caused some nervousness for FL and we are in some sort of damage control here.

History (no more history please as it's off topic here)
Hitler was certainly to blame for attacking Russia in the first place. However the fact that he was supreme commander doesn't make him responsible for the failure or success of every German Military Operation, including the Kursk Offensive.

Using your "logic" you could say that Eisenhower bears a lot of the responsibility for the failure of Operation Market Garden because he made decisions on the options Montgomery etc provided, he approved the final OMG plan, and yes, Eisenhower also contributed to the delay of the operation. I know from experience you would be hard pressed to find anyone agreeing Eisenhower is even partly responsible, let alone bear a lot of the responsibility for its failure.

Collector foibles
Oh dear, I am a hypocrite because I have some apparent conflicts regarding what figures I collect. I'm sure I'm in a big club there.

Considering the poor sales record of Eastern Front ranges, especially Russian sets, I find it strange that this theater was selected for First Legions venture into WWII. I know some members voted for the Eastern Front on a recent poll but North Africa and Italy were also popular. Hey why didn't someone think of the Mediterranean Theater that includes North Africa and Italy and had the widest variety of combatants and uniforms in the whole of WWII - I know I did

 

[Rob]

I don't understand why my post was deleted?.

The reason I differentiate between the LAH and SS Fighting troops is i guess just about symbolism,i just don't like the idea of parading the ideals of the Nazi's,the fighting troops are in my collection because they were the enemy in the field who had to be beaten.If that makes me a hypocrite i guess i am,but its no big thing just a choice i make,we are all free to make our choices and good luck to those who do like the LAH i say.

I also agree with Doug,i don't view the Russians as the enemy in WW2 and therefore i don't collect them.I don't collect them for a simple reason,i can't afford everything!.

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

I don't understand why my post was deleted?.

The reason I differentiate between the LAH and SS Fighting troops is i guess just about symbolism,i just don't like the idea of parading the ideals of the Nazi's,the fighting troops are in my collection because they were the enemy in the field who had to be beaten.If that makes me a hypocrite i guess i am,but its no big thing just a choice i make,we are all free to make our choices and good luck to those who do like the LAH i say.

I also agree with Doug,i don't view the Russians as the enemy in WW2 and therefore i don't collect them.I don't collect them for a simple reason,i can't afford everything!.

Rob

Hi Rob, I didn't see your post so I can't comment on what you said or why it may have been deleted. Mate, there is no way you can be considered a hypocrite for your decision to collect Waffen SS but not LAH in exactly the same way that I am not a hypocrite for my choices. I was shocked that the owner of First Legion went to such lengths to make a big deal out of member's collecting decisions, I suspect he was attempting to devalue my opinions in general.

 

[Rob]

Oz,i tried to lighten the mood by suggesting we all sing 'I'd like to teach the world to sing',it was meant as a joke in what was rapidly becoming a fraught thread,i apologise if i upset anyone.

I guess i have stated my choice re LAH too many times,but it is really just my choice,i would never berate anyone who does,we live in a free world and good luck to you i say.As i said its all about symbolism and the perception of that symbolism and its a purely personal thing.I can at least admire the bravery and skill of the SS troops in Normandy for instance.But then i guess someone can say 'Rob,what about the things the SS troops did in Russia'?.And off we go again!.I don't have all the answers its just about what i'm happy to have in collection.Does that make sense Oz?.

These Stalingrad figures look very nice indeed,i am now awaiting dispatches to see whats coming for Normandy,put these two releases together and it could be an expensive summer!

Rob

 

[debrito]

I don't quite follow the logic that the Russians were bad guys therefore collectors won't buy them. The Germans are the top sellers according to everything I have read and they were bad guys. Even assuming we agree that Russians were evil, what the sam hill does that matter? Are we boycotting Stalin? He's dead. My guess is they don't sell well because many collectors are Private Ryan historians with an almost complete ignorance of the eastern front. The irony is that toy soldier dollars go to commie China. If you want to make a political issue of this hobby stop buying any of them.

because many collectors are Private Ryan historians with an almost complete ignorance of the eastern front.
Combat this is an excellent POST, I mean REALLY EXCELLENT...

People here are just interested on Bulge, D-Day and 8th Army…..

 

[damian]

Read the works of these writers:

German , Wolfgang Strauss

French Scholar, Stephane Courtois

Russian , Viktor Suvorov I believe his pen name is Vladimir Rezun his book titled " Icebreaker " has been written in English

German historian Joachim Hoffmann's work " Stalin's War of Extermination 1941 - 45 "

American Professor Richard Raack works

These historians and an open mind is a start, that's all I'll say.

Hi
I doubt if I am going to get round to reading those guys as my area of interest in mostly AZW and Napoleon. I have read Anthony Beevor's Berlin and STalingrad and Richard Overy's book Russia's War. I also read Absolute War last year. So I am intirgued by your author list. You obviously have read this subject in depth, so I am asking for a summary of the new veiwpoints that you mention.I really would be interested in an answer even if you pm it to me.
Regards

 

[damian]

Wow
This thread is like Borodino the day after the Battle. Littered with deleted posts and the odd banning.