First Legion vs. King&Country (2 Viewers)

[fmethorst]

Poland sure did get a raw deal in WWII. Invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union, let down by France and Britain when decisive action was required on the western German frontier, primary site of the "Final Solution", overrun and occupied by the Soviet Union for over 40 years and abandoned by the western powers the free Polish fought with.

In my view the Soviet regime was every bit as despicable as the Nazi regime. The Soviet contempt of human life played a huge part in the ridiculously high Soviet casualty figures (both military and civilian).

One can only speculate if making a deal with the Soviet Union was the correct decision. Allowing the Soviet Union to survive led to the Cold War with its numerous proxy wars (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Middle East, Africa, Central America etc.) and the occupation and repression of Eastern Europe for over 40 years not to mention the constant threat of global nuclear war. If you ask me the price was too high. The western powers should have crossed the Elbe and not stopped until they reached the Kremlin.

 

[OzDigger]

One thing happened for sure....The announcement of the releasing of WWII series by First Legion has created an interesting atmosphere on this forum...

I am referring to the Eastern Front in general. We don't know for sure if the new FL Germans are specifically for that theater as the two figures depicted on their website could also fit into the Western Front and others. The actual theater depicted will depend upon what combatants (against the Germans) FL bring out.

 

[OzDigger]

Strangely enough, I don't think my grandfather or many other Poles of his generation particularly regarded the Russians as Allies either nor having fought at Monte Cassino as well the Eastern Front did he feel it was some sort of walk in the park in comparison.

It is a gross simplication to see the war on the Eastern Front as involving only two sides and the Russians as the good guys combatting evil. They were quite capable of acting as the aggressor and commiting atrocities both on their own people and on those of neighbouring states even before the German invasion.

That is the main reason I keep away from the Eastern Front. I appreciate the great contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany in that theater. However the treatment of the non-combatants (by both sides) dulls my interest in figures and models representing the combatants involved.

 

[OzDigger]

That's why there's The Geneva Convention, to which the Soviet Union was a non-signatory.

Well, that's another good reason not to collect them

 

[OzDigger]

Well put Nasir,

Lend-Lease was the tipping factor. Virtually the whole Red Army was feed by American produce. That is why Stalin stopped at Berlin. He had plans to make all of Europe, Red.

But who would of fed his Army.

Fuel is far more important to armies than food and the Russian soldiers were not to particular about what they eat. Stalin went further than what he agreed to at the Yalta conference. The US and Britain knew there was nothing they could do about Stalin occupying Poland. And in reality he would have been hard to stop if he decided to occupy all of Germany and even France considering the army and materiel he had available.

 

[OzDigger]

Poland sure did get a raw deal in WWII. Invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union, let down by France and Britain when decisive action was required on the western German frontier, primary site of the "Final Solution", overrun and occupied by the Soviet Union for over 40 years and abandoned by the western powers the free Polish fought with.

In my view the Soviet regime was every bit as despicable as the Nazi regime. The Soviet contempt of human life played a huge part in the ridiculously high Soviet casualty figures (both military and civilian).

One can only speculate if making a deal with the Soviet Union was the correct decision. Allowing the Soviet Union to survive led to the Cold War with its numerous proxy wars (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Middle East, Africa, Central America etc.) and the occupation and repression of Eastern Europe for over 40 years not to mention the constant threat of global nuclear war. If you ask me the price was too high. The western powers should have crossed the Elbe and not stopped until they reached the Kremlin.

Frank, with due respect, do you really think that was viable? I feel the Western allies made the correct decision in the circumstances at the time.

 

[marco55]

Poland sure did get a raw deal in WWII. Invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union, let down by France and Britain when decisive action was required on the western German frontier, primary site of the "Final Solution", overrun and occupied by the Soviet Union for over 40 years and abandoned by the western powers the free Polish fought with.

In my view the Soviet regime was every bit as despicable as the Nazi regime. The Soviet contempt of human life played a huge part in the ridiculously high Soviet casualty figures (both military and civilian).

One can only speculate if making a deal with the Soviet Union was the correct decision. Allowing the Soviet Union to survive led to the Cold War with its numerous proxy wars (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Middle East, Africa, Central America etc.) and the occupation and repression of Eastern Europe for over 40 years not to mention the constant threat of global nuclear war. If you ask me the price was too high. The western powers should have crossed the Elbe and not stopped until they reached the Kremlin.

The western powers probably should have kept going but I think all nations were so war weary that maybe only the Americans had the resolve to keep going.I know Patton would have.
Mark

 

[fmethorst]

Frank, with due respect, do you really think that was viable? I feel the Western allies made the correct decision in the circumstances at the time.

Actually I do. If you look at the damage untrained Volksturm, Hitlerjungend and largely depleted Heer and SS divisions were able to inflict on the Soviets during their assault on Berlin one can only imagine what full strength well trained, well supplied western divisions with air superiority could have done.

I think Soviet propaganda was quite successful in convincing people of the invincibility of the Soviet Union. Their rigid military doctrine coupled with unimagineative leadership, poor quality equipment and believe it or not manpower limitations would have proved problematic to the Soviets. Don't forget all the supplies the western powers were providing as well (i.e. fuel). This doesn't even take into account the atomic bomb.

I'm not saying this would have been an honorable course of action based on the agreement, I'm merely speculating that in hindsight the defeat of the Soviet Union and avoidance of the Cold War would have been a good thing.

I realize that war weariness may have made this hypothetical scenario unrealistic but it's interesting to consider.

 

[OzDigger]

Actually I do. If you look at the damage untrained Volksturm, Hitlerjungend and largely depleted Heer and SS divisions were able to inflict on the Soviets during their assault on Berlin one can only imagine what full strength well trained, well supplied western divisions with air superiority could have done.

I think Soviet propaganda was quite successful in convincing people of the invincibility of the Soviet Union. Their rigid military doctrine coupled with unimagineative leadership, poor quality equipment and believe it or not manpower limitations would have proved problematic to the Soviets. Don't forget all the supplies the western powers were providing as well (i.e. fuel). This doesn't even take into account the atomic bomb.

I'm not saying this would have been an honorable course of action based on the agreement, I'm merely speculating that in hindsight the defeat of the Soviet Union and avoidance of the Cold War would have been a good thing.

I realize that war weariness may have made this hypothetical scenario unrealistic but it's interesting to consider.

Don't forget that during the Battle for Greater Germany - then - Berlin, the casualties inflicted on the Russians was largely due to Stalin wanting Berlin occupied in double quick time before the Western allies got there - despite the agreement he made at Yalta.

If the Western allies attacked the Russian forces the Russians could have simply retreated and moved back closer to their supply lines whilst the Western allies would be moving further from theirs. And we are well aware of the difficulties the US and Brits had keeping supplies up to their troops during their battles to Germany.

It's true that initially the Russians had some problems with strategy and tactics but they proved at Kursk that they had learned from their mistakes. Subsequently, as I said above, it was Stalin's desire for speed that was the main cause of their higher losses.

And of course such a traitorous move by the Western allies would have galvanized the Russians into even greater levels of moral indignity. They were angry enough with the Germans, just imagine how they would have reacted if the US had invaded them as well. The Cold War was a very small price compared to what would have happened if the US kept going.

And of course the Russians would have exaggerated their losses to reinforce what the capture of Berlin cost them - thus increasing their claim to land they occupied.

 

[joesgis]

There speaks the voice of reason.

By the end of this week we may have great new releases from K&C and the new WW2 range from FL,we can't lose!

Rob

You got that right, Rob! We can't lose! (except for all the cabbage falling out of our wallets!) LOL

You gotta love K & C and FL; two wonderfully class outfits that bring a smile to my face and make me feel like a kid again! That feeling is pretty priceless!

 

[IXEC]

I am happy not to collect a range representing the Center Stage for brutality. What you guys do is your affair.

It's so hard to find a " kind moral war " these day's.

 

[OzDigger]

It's so hard to find a " kind moral war " these day's.

The Battle of Britain and North African campaign are as close as you got in WWII, which is partly why they are popular subjects.

 

[IXEC]

OZZDIGGER QUOTE " It's true that initially the Russians had some problems with strategy and tactics but they proved at Kursk that they had learned from their mistakes " .



The whole German, Kursk battle plan had been exposed by the " Lucy Spy Ring " which to this day the details are Classified because of possible retributions.

Kursk wasn't planned by Hitler to be a win all German victory, although his generals though the effort would be. This revelation has only resently come to light ( Hitler's reasoning behind the Kursk Offensive ) It was his stradegy to deny the Soviet's their 1943 summer offensive by tying them down to defend. The Soviet's counter attacks resulted in such losses in material as to cancel out any meaniful 1943 Soviet winter offense too, even though they gained ground in 1943.

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

Brett will you be selling First Legion in your shop.They seem to be getting alot of feedback .I have not seen alot of there soldiers but what fun I have had reading all of the trouble it has caused.Simmo.

 

[OzDigger]

The whole German, Kursk battle plan had been exposed by the " Lucy Spy Ring " which to this day the details are Classified because of possible retributions.

Kursk wasn't planned by Hitler to be a win all German victory, although his generals though the effort would be. This revelation has only resently come to light ( Hitler's reasoning behind the Kursk Offensive ) It was his stradegy to deny the Soviet's their 1943 summer offensive by tying them down to defend. The Soviet's counter attacks resulted in such losses in material as to cancel out any meaniful 1943 Soviet winter offense too, even though they gained ground in 1943.

The Russians guessed where the Germans were going to attack without input from the Lucy Spy Ring and planned their trap accordingly.

Hitler had little input into Operation Zitadelle and was not keen on the operation.

As for the result:
Heinz Guderian said: With the failure of Zitadelle we have suffered a decisive defeat. The armoured formations, reformed and re-equipped with so much effort, had lost heavily in both men and equipment and would now be unemployable for a long time to come. It was problematical whether they could be rehabilitated in time to defend the Eastern Front... Needless to say the Russians exploited their victory to the full. There were to be no more periods of quiet on the Eastern Front. From now on, the enemy was in undisputed possession of the initiative.

 

[petebuster1]

gone off thread to a history lesson

 

[Andanna]

Cannot resist.

 

[OzDigger]

Who cares what figures people collect, or why, its a free country. I don't collect Russians, Japanese or Hitler Youth figures, but I'm ok with Waffen SS and Berlin '38 figures. Others refuse to collect Berlin '38 figures but are ok with Waffen SS.

I even know this guy that doesn't like Italian figures, not because of their brutality to civilians or their own troops, he just hates Italians. And over a period of several months he kept telling us how much he hated Italians. You know the sort of guy, rather miserable and you couldn't rely on what he said. Personally I didn't save any of his posts - why would you bother.

 

[IXEC]

The Russians guessed where the Germans were going to attack without input from the Lucy Spy Ring and planned their trap accordingly.

Hitler had little input into Operation Zitadelle and was not keen on the operation.

As for the result:
Heinz Guderian said: With the failure of Zitadelle we have suffered a decisive defeat. The armoured formations, reformed and re-equipped with so much effort, had lost heavily in both men and equipment and would now be unemployable for a long time to come. It was problematical whether they could be rehabilitated in time to defend the Eastern Front... Needless to say the Russians exploited their victory to the full. There were to be no more periods of quiet on the Eastern Front. From now on, the enemy was in undisputed possession of the initiative.

The Soviet knew every detail of the German Kursk offensive.

Hitler had a MAJOR ROLE in ALL war operation from late Aug. 1941 to the end.

General Guderian had a convenient memory. His diaries, those that have been see by historians, tell a different story than the " cookie cutter history " that your use to reading.

The whole Eastern Front War is being " reviewed " by Russian Historians. These reviewers now have the advantage of formerly classified Soviet Archives.

If the Western Media allows the truth to be published ( accepted ), revelations about what really happened on the Eastern Front will be Revolutionary to the real causes of World War II.

I doubt very much, if the new revelation will be adopted in or by the Western press.

Napoleon once said all history is a lie, agreed apon by committee.

 

[OzDigger]

The Soviet knew every detail of the German Kursk offensive.

Hitler had a MAJOR ROLE in ALL war operation from late Aug. 1941 to the end.

General Guderian had a convenient memory. His diaries, those that have been see by historians, tell a different story than the " cookie cutter history " that your use to reading.

The whole Eastern Front War is being " reviewed " by Russian Historians. These reviewers now have the advantage of formerly classified Soviet Archives.

If the Western Media allows the truth to be published ( accepted ), revelations about what really happened on the Eastern Front will be Revolutionary to the real causes of World War II.

I doubt very much, if the new revelation will be adopted in or by the Western press.

Napoleon once said all history is a lie, agreed apon by committee.

I am not arguing that the Russians were not aware of the German plan, just that their intel wasn't all via the Lucy Ring. As Patton demonstrated at Lorraine, it is one thing to know about an enemy's plan, countering it is the hard part.

To say that "Hitler had a MAJOR ROLE in ALL war operation from late Aug. 1941 to the end" is too broad a statement and certainly not relevant to Operation Zitadelle.

All senior military officers have convenient memories to some degree, but most historians say Guderian was usually honest and reliable.

I have no idea what "cookie cutter" history means, but I can say that my references are standard works.

Those Russians have been fond of "revolutionary work" for some time I looked forward to seeing any new information if and when it's published.