Pricing, where's your limit?? (1 Viewer)

Mr Reed Sir,
I am assuming that your remarks are directed at myself. I don't know nowadays when members just come on with a post and not address it to someone or to all in general. I have been to many TS large shows in the US and handle all brands before purchasing and although my collection is mainly K&C and JJD, I do have Britains Zulus, ACW and Sudan plus some TG, FL and CS. I think that gives me the perfect right to speak on all these manufacturers.
The subject is not about quality, sculpting, painting, design, etc. but about price.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These I will admit do have some bearing on the price. But there are many other things to be taken into account. Having studied Cost Accounting in my younger days and having been in retail for some 35 years I feel I have a fair grip on the subject.
Can I see the difference between a $32 Britains figure and a $39 JJD and a $45 K&C figure. Yes I can.
Can I see the difference between a $45 KC figure and a $65 FL figure. No I cannot. At $49 you may have won me over but not at $65.
The subject really is a dead end subject because none of us know how the various manufacturers cost their figures from design, sculpting, moulding, painting, warehousing, sales staff cost, advertising, shipping, manufacturer's margin, retailer's margin, etc. etc.
Enough for today the dogs near a bath.
Cheers Howard

Howard

In regards to your price comparison between K&C & FL, I don't believe that your cost accounting background is factoring in the "extra" costs of doing business in Russia.

(Oh, is that my first negative remark about FL?)

^&grin{sm4}:wink2:

Shane
 
Because it is a world class shop with an Internet access that carries a wide array of manufactures
and doesn't flog one manufacture. I didn't pay attention to where he was located. My bad. Still it would
benefit some Australians to visit for a visual, in-the-hand and private evaluation. In the U.S. I'd visit Treefrog. Both
carry First Legion for comparison among others, and be able to discuss in private.

Totally agree about it being a world class shop.
 
Howard

In regards to your price comparison between K&C & FL, I don't believe that your cost accounting background is factoring in the "extra" costs of doing business in Russia.

(Oh, is that my first negative remark about FL?)

^&grin{sm4}:wink2:

Shane

I think you will find FL is in China.
 
It seems that nothing beats the threads about "pricing" or "scales" :rolleyes2:
Don't you guys ever grow weary of them?
Okay, sometimes a newly signed up member posts a question to those subjects.
In that case, wouldn't it be easier for the members who are familiar with the subjects and keep records, just to post a link or links to the numerous previous discussions?

As of the initial question of this thread, no limit for me.
When a figure is good enough and I can afford it, I buy it, when it is good enough but too expensive, I don't buy it.
When all new figures get to the point of being too expensive, there are actually 1000's of Toy Soldiers on the secondary market, that I do like, and that can be found at decent prices.
So, no problem for future collecting :wink2:

Konrad
 
Here is something else to contemplate... Steady price increases is also a sign of a SHRINKING toy soldier collector market and NOT an expanding one! Manufacturers have to protect their margins or go out of business. The target customer has now become the affluent collector as volume sales decrease. This has become a good reason to retire items sooner. Once the affluent collector has made their purchase of an item they are already looking for the next thing. Price increases for many reasons... Not sure where this is all headed but one day that affluent collector will also stop purchasing when it gets to be outrageous to them!
 
I've managed to read this thread from start to finish and it's epic.......had plenty of laughs along the way, plus some good solid commentary on a very relevant topic.....I have to thank Sammy for kicking things off, but must say and I mean no offence......I really do think you poked the wasps nest mate^&grin:wink2:

As for Mr BLREEDS comments......sorry mate, but I simply can't make head nor tail of what you're trying to say, but I enjoyed it all the same.

Cheers
 
A Chinese wage is even now still poor if it were high in the terms we as westerners think of high no toy soldier manufacturer would be having anything made there. So, we have multiple manufacturers all getting their figures made in China and, a massive price difference between them and, as Howard mentioned TG and CS and a few others at the lower end and, some not many at the top end FL to be exact with K&C kind of sitting relatively centre and, as you keep reiterating selling figures at $44 dollars. That seems to me to be for the size of the company not too bad. I think, and I have said this before that most of the reaction to K&C is due to the fact that they release every month and, really only TG is following in a similar way. Figarti really release a couple of times of year and CS are not that far ahead of that and FL in a similar fashion. so, that means they are highlighted in most peoples attention whilst others are not. so, when others release and they are priced at what they are people are more interested in what they have released in general than what the cost is. Add to this makers like Figarti produce so few that most peoples attention there is grabbing one (or several!!) quickly before gone so, actually probably don't consider price as much until they realise they have one.
Mitch


Chris

I have to say that I agree with you on this. The labor and materials argument is not going to fly. I would have refrained from responding to Andy's rebutal, but he took a shot at the "weakening US dollar" to cover the fact that he really didn't have a good explanation for his price increases. Also, I found the gun to the head comment in bad taste. But, as you said. It's his company and someone has to make the call on final pricing.

Shane
 
I think you will find FL is in China.

What??? {eek3}{sm5}:eek:

Really, they are all in China? Well, doesn't that make life grand. So, how long can they all keep these "cost related price increases" going until they make the market attractive to a competitor who is not manufacturing in the Far East? ^&confuse
 
This certainly does appear to be a surprisingly controversial topic, which I frankly consider to be more in the category of a group commiseration. I doubt there is anyone here who would not prefer that any of their favorite products were priced lower. I also doubt that anyone here is completely insensitive to price. In simple economic terms, for a consumer the maximum price they will pay for a product is simply determined by their price elasticity of demand for that product. So to that extent, the answer to the thread question is at the point where the supply curve for your product crosses the demand curve. At a price above that point, there will be no purchase, below, there will. So I suppose the real question asked is what is each collector's price elasticity of demand for their painted metal figures and vehicles etc. I suppose that may be interesting to some but in the end the only meaningful answers are those collected by the market. That is, if a given product's prices reach the point at which they cause a reduction in sales, then prices will either stabilize at that point or sales will be reduced. If that point is above cost, the product will likely continue to be produced, if not it will not.

So while I certainly would enjoy paying less for the figures I fancy, talking about it doesn't seem terribly productive to me. I can only say that as price increases I will buy less and at some point I will buy none.

Now how this discussion lapsed into some apparent debate about which figures are the best is somewhat beyond me. The perceived relative difference in quality among figures is certainly a factor in defining the price elasticity for that set of figures or whether you are willing to pay more for what you perceive you are getting in return. It should be obvious by now that perceptions of quality differ, as do price elasticity’s of demand. So if you happen to be someone who perceives that the price difference between two completing products is not worth the quality difference, obviously you would chose the lower price product. If not, the reverse is true. Why that should bother anyone is rather baffling.

Having said all that I was particulary confused in reading the following post, to which I offer a few simple observations in reply.
.....The subject is not about quality, sculpting, painting, design, etc. but about price.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These I will admit do have some bearing on the price. But there are many other things to be taken into account. Having studied Cost Accounting in my younger days and having been in retail for some 35 years I feel I have a fair grip on the subject.
Fascinating. I am not sure what you mean by some bearing but quality generally affects costs unless you are able to find a cost dislocation event (a circmstance where the cost of the quality is priced below its actual cost, which is a short term situation usually.) So I would simply say, quality costs more to produce and for those who perceive a value in it, quality justifies a higher demand.
Can I see the difference between a $32 Britains figure and a $39 JJD and a $45 K&C figure. Yes I can.
Can I see the difference between a $45 KC figure and a $65 FL figure. No I cannot. .....
Well if that is true, you are very fortunate. Many would say the same about the difference between various lower and higher priced products and for the sake of economy, those who truly cannot see the differences certainly have a financial advantage over those who can. Unfortunately, I am not blessed in that way. More's the pity I suppose.

I would also note that there are some that would find that the differences you cite between some of the figures are actually reversed for them. That is some may find a greater quality in some JJD figures over some KC figures, etc. To me, unless we are debating absolute qualities of specific figures, akin to judging figures at an exhibition, this is a fruitless exercise. Individual preferences and biases based on previous purchase decisions are just too prevalent to make that anything more than a recipe for a meaningless exchange. Nonetheless, this thread certainly has produced a variety of fascinating divergencies, a bit of the old sound and fury I think.
 
Harper. As an accountant for 25plus years. I just want to say I like your answer!
 
What??? {eek3}{sm5}:eek:

Really, they are all in China? Well, doesn't that make life grand. So, how long can they all keep these "cost related price increases" going until they make the market attractive to a competitor who is not manufacturing in the Far East? ^&confuse

CS has started manufacturing in the USA. FL's Russian connection refers to it's financial backers.

Terry
 
This certainly does appear to be a surprisingly controversial topic, which I frankly consider to be more in the category of a group commiseration. I doubt there is anyone here who would not prefer that any of their favorite products were priced lower. I also doubt that anyone here is completely insensitive to price. In simple economic terms, for a consumer the maximum price they will pay for a product is simply determined by their price elasticity of demand for that product. So to that extent, the answer to the thread question is at the point where the supply curve for your product crosses the demand curve. At a price above that point, there will be no purchase, below, there will. So I suppose the real question asked is what is each collector's price elasticity of demand for their painted metal figures and vehicles etc. I suppose that may be interesting to some but in the end the only meaningful answers are those collected by the market. That is, if a given product's prices reach the point at which they cause a reduction in sales, then prices will either stabilize at that point or sales will be reduced. If that point is above cost, the product will likely continue to be produced, if not it will not.

So while I certainly would enjoy paying less for the figures I fancy, talking about it doesn't seem terribly productive to me. I can only say that as price increases I will buy less and at some point I will buy none.

Now how this discussion lapsed into some apparent debate about which figures are the best is somewhat beyond me. The perceived relative difference in quality among figures is certainly a factor in defining the price elasticity for that set of figures or whether you are willing to pay more for what you perceive you are getting in return. It should be obvious by now that perceptions of quality differ, as do price elasticity’s of demand. So if you happen to be someone who perceives that the price difference between two completing products is not worth the quality difference, obviously you would chose the lower price product. If not, the reverse is true. Why that should bother anyone is rather baffling.

Having said all that I was particulary confused in reading the following post, to which I offer a few simple observations in reply.
Fascinating. I am not sure what you mean by some bearing but quality generally affects costs unless you are able to find a cost dislocation event (a circmstance where the cost of the quality is priced below its actual cost, which is a short term situation usually.) So I would simply say, quality costs more to produce and for those who perceive a value in it, quality justifies a higher demand.

Well if that is true, you are very fortunate. Many would say the same about the difference between various lower and higher priced products and for the sake of economy, those who truly cannot see the differences certainly have a financial advantage over those who can. Unfortunately, I am not blessed in that way. More's the pity I suppose.

I would also note that there are some that would find that the differences you cite between some of the figures are actually reversed for them. That is some may find a greater quality in some JJD figures over some KC figures, etc. To me, unless we are debating absolute qualities of specific figures, akin to judging figures at an exhibition, this is a fruitless exercise. Individual preferences and biases based on previous purchase decisions are just too prevalent to make that anything more than a recipe for a meaningless exchange. Nonetheless, this thread certainly has produced a variety of fascinating divergencies, a bit of the old sound and fury I think.

Very good analysis of market forces. In simple English, all it means is that collectors will keep buying toy soldiers until they reach the point where they think it isn't worth it - then they will stop buying. It's just that complicated - not.

The point of this thread was to see where the "stop buying" points are for the collectors on Treefrog. From conversations with several of the larger dealers in the US they have all indicated 2012 was there best year ever. So it doesn't look like price increases will stop any time soon. Prices will probably keep rising until sales begin to decline.

Terry
 
I use to buy St. Petersburg figures years ago, but now as a retiree the price focus has dramtically changed. I look for dealers with free shipping and a cap of $30 per figure times number in set. For large sets, I look for deals. For Christmas shopping, the limit changes since one of my sons is a WWII K&C collector, so no limit is set (focus is then on appeal). Since my collection interests recently have been narrowed down to Roman, and ACW (Napoleonic on hold), I am able to stretch my purchases.
 
A new poll thread might be in order with a series of price points at which members would vote to show at what price they would, "for the most part", stop making further purchases from that manufacturer. It can be broken out by foot figure and mounted figure. Motorized vehicles would not make sense for this type of poll. This would have to be done for each manufacturer because judging from what was said, members have different price points for different manufacturers.

I have no experience with setting-up Treefrog polls so I leave it up to someone else... {eek3}
 
CS has started manufacturing in the USA. FL's Russian connection refers to it's financial backers.

Terry

Very good analysis of market forces. In simple English, all it means is that collectors will keep buying toy soldiers until they reach the point where they think it isn't worth it - then they will stop buying. It's just that complicated - not.

The point of this thread was to see where the "stop buying" points are for the collectors on Treefrog. From conversations with several of the larger dealers in the US they have all indicated 2012 was there best year ever. So it doesn't look like price increases will stop any time soon. Prices will probably keep rising until sales begin to decline.

Terry

Terry

Thank you for both of these posts. I agree with your comments regarding the state of the market and the continued price increases.

Shane

:)
 
Very good analysis of market forces. In simple English, all it means is that collectors will keep buying toy soldiers until they reach the point where they think it isn't worth it - then they will stop buying. It's just that complicated - not.

The point of this thread was to see where the "stop buying" points are for the collectors on Treefrog. From conversations with several of the larger dealers in the US they have all indicated 2012 was there best year ever. So it doesn't look like price increases will stop any time soon. Prices will probably keep rising until sales begin to decline.

Terry

Is that because there are fewer retailers overall and the remaining ones have been able to capture a larger collector base? That is something to consider as well. I know of several retailers out of the toy soldier business over the last few years.
 
Is that because there are fewer retailers overall and the remaining ones have been able to capture a larger collector base? That is something to consider as well. I know of several retailers out of the toy soldier business over the last few years.

I don't know? There has been some consolidation of US Dealers - I think only a few and only small operations. There has been an increase in toy soldier show attendance and show sales, but I don't know the impact of dealers closing. I would guess it hasn't had much impact.

Terry
 
Keeping the dscussion clean and civil, One company just released some new foot soldiers at $64.95 each ! Too much for my blood {sm2} I can personally deal with $40.00 to $45.00 range, at least for now........
 
I think the price people are willing to pay depends on how large a collection someone wants.I know that I've decided on a smaller collection so I might be willing to pay a little more but when I tried to collect every Jenkins FIW item it overwhelmed me.Actually as I said earlier I have went to smaller figures but with a plan and have a few kits but most are painted now.
Mark
 
Keeping the dscussion clean and civil, One company just released some new foot soldiers at $64.95 each ! Too much for my blood {sm2} I can personally deal with $40.00 to $45.00 range, at least for now........

That's why we have choice. I assume you are referring to FL. I just received their Union artillery set and it's spectacular, as good as the Aero Art one I have. However, not everyone wants to spend that kind of money. It's all individual choice. I'm glad I have the option.

Some people are happy with Chevys or Nissans. Others want a Lexus or a Mercedes Benz. All about choice.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top