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Spending my time now working with the two largest volunteer teaching organizations to develop a curriculum on protesting and free speech....how violence erodes the legitimacy of causes.

Also did some research by speaking to law enforcement contacts and medical professionals. I am a research guy from way back.
Some interesting information.

there is no evidence that George Soros funded these demonstrations or funds Antifa. According to my FBI sources Antifa is not a nationally organized movement and funding comes from many individuals and illicit activities.
Conspiracy theories abound on social media.

Outside agitators include Antifa, BLM, White Supremists, Communist organizations and even foreign actors.

Police allegations that a victim speaking must be proof of breathing is medically false. You can emit sounds and short sentences while being deprived of air or not breathing.

Social media is worse than the media when it comes to fake news and conspiracy theories. Most people just don't have the motivation, aptitude or time to do their research.

Now I will spend my time trying to fight racism and educate our young students on civics and economics.

Rich,
agree with your info. I am not wasting my time on Soros or connections, to me he is another in a long line of billionaire ego folks who try and do wield their influence, you just hope most of it is for the good, but none of them IMO are worth wasting breath and time on. I really don't care who they support and I put them in the same category of idiots.

Whatever group uses violence and however they are organized, they are an enemy to free society.

Regarding protestors, it is a fundamental right and I do not want to see it eradicated in any way, BUT there has to be a middle ground where if law enforcement declares it is finished for public safety (Curfew, violence, etc), then it is over. I truly believe in today's world, our law enforcement is NOT out on the streets looking to tear gas peaceful protestors. What cannot be tolerated is bricks, bats, bottles, molatov cocktails, quite frankly anything thrown or aimed at law enforcement. That happened last night, where we saw one small group of agitators in one area provoke law enforcement on camera in order to get law enforcement to react. They had to react for the general public safety. It is not civilized , not justified and **** not right.

I think we are seeing a unified message of condemnation of the George Floyd tragedy, that is the starting point. I want to see a unified message condemning the violence. There is NO excuse for Racism and there should be NO excuse for violence. This is out of control and I fear we are going to see more violence.

On another note, as a person who lives in the suburbs, have to be honest, I have no desire to visit any city anytime soon. That is **** sad as I enjoy a number of the cities that are currently being trampled.

Applaud your efforts on the education level.
 
My biggest confusion-
What ends this?
If people weren’t aware of black injustice, they are now. What is the goal? If we asked the protesters what do you need in order to end this, will they have an answer? Things must change, totally agree. But I just don’t see anything that can happen in the short term to stop this
 
I think the real protesters want all of the officers involved be charged and for black men stopped being singled out just because of their skin color.The rioters just wants chaos the the collapsed of the American system.
Mark
 
I guess , yes - arrest those three other cops. Beyond that, it will all take time. Personally I think it’s time for the remainder of the arrests. The prosecutors have had ample time to question the officers and review the footage.
 
Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. Views and actions have to change!
 
My biggest confusion-
What ends this?
If people weren’t aware of black injustice, they are now. What is the goal? If we asked the protesters what do you need in order to end this, will they have an answer? Things must change, totally agree. But I just don’t see anything that can happen in the short term to stop this


Zach,
I think real change will only come from better education and through elections of like minded legislators.
I think voting for President, Senate and Congress should be mandatory as it is in other countries. Make
election day a federal holiday so its easier for working people to go to the polls.
 
Rich,
agree with your info. I am not wasting my time on Soros or connections, to me he is another in a long line of billionaire ego folks who try and do wield their influence, you just hope most of it is for the good, but none of them IMO are worth wasting breath and time on. I really don't care who they support and I put them in the same category of idiots.

Whatever group uses violence and however they are organized, they are an enemy to free society.

Regarding protestors, it is a fundamental right and I do not want to see it eradicated in any way, BUT there has to be a middle ground where if law enforcement declares it is finished for public safety (Curfew, violence, etc), then it is over. I truly believe in today's world, our law enforcement is NOT out on the streets looking to tear gas peaceful protestors. What cannot be tolerated is bricks, bats, bottles, molatov cocktails, quite frankly anything thrown or aimed at law enforcement. That happened last night, where we saw one small group of agitators in one area provoke law enforcement on camera in order to get law enforcement to react. They had to react for the general public safety. It is not civilized , not justified and **** not right.

I think we are seeing a unified message of condemnation of the George Floyd tragedy, that is the starting point. I want to see a unified message condemning the violence. There is NO excuse for Racism and there should be NO excuse for violence. This is out of control and I fear we are going to see more violence.

On another note, as a person who lives in the suburbs, have to be honest, I have no desire to visit any city anytime soon. That is **** sad as I enjoy a number of the cities that are currently being trampled.



Thanks Tom,
Regarding your statement that I agree with "Regarding protests, it is a fundamental right and I do not want to see it eradicated in any way." So what did you think of the violence agains the peaceful protestors in from of the Church in DC just so our President could do a photo-op. The Church Pastor and hundreds of clergy across the country condemned his actions. I just want the criticism to be even handed.
 
Here is another very sad tragedy.
Looters shoot and kill retired police Captain.

Ironically the Captain was black. Died on the pavement, gunned down by looters robbing a pawn store.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local...cle_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html


I believe the Governors and Mayors of these cities have failed the citizens they are supposed to serve. They are all useless. They should resign immediately.
 
Rich,
agree with your info. I am not wasting my time on Soros or connections, to me he is another in a long line of billionaire ego folks who try and do wield their influence, you just hope most of it is for the good, but none of them IMO are worth wasting breath and time on. I really don't care who they support and I put them in the same category of idiots.

Whatever group uses violence and however they are organized, they are an enemy to free society.

Regarding protestors, it is a fundamental right and I do not want to see it eradicated in any way, BUT there has to be a middle ground where if law enforcement declares it is finished for public safety (Curfew, violence, etc), then it is over. I truly believe in today's world, our law enforcement is NOT out on the streets looking to tear gas peaceful protestors. What cannot be tolerated is bricks, bats, bottles, molatov cocktails, quite frankly anything thrown or aimed at law enforcement. That happened last night, where we saw one small group of agitators in one area provoke law enforcement on camera in order to get law enforcement to react. They had to react for the general public safety. It is not civilized , not justified and **** not right.

I think we are seeing a unified message of condemnation of the George Floyd tragedy, that is the starting point. I want to see a unified message condemning the violence. There is NO excuse for Racism and there should be NO excuse for violence. This is out of control and I fear we are going to see more violence.

On another note, as a person who lives in the suburbs, have to be honest, I have no desire to visit any city anytime soon. That is **** sad as I enjoy a number of the cities that are currently being trampled.



Thanks Tom,
Regarding your statement that I agree with "Regarding protests, it is a fundamental right and I do not want to see it eradicated in any way." So what did you think of the violence agains the peaceful protestors in from of the Church in DC just so our President could do a photo-op. The Church Pastor and hundreds of clergy across the country condemned his actions. I just want the criticism to be even handed.

Rich I don't want to fight about your post here, but I think you should really research the above. It has been debunked. Long story short, Federal Law Enforcement moved to clear the area as they deemed necessary. However, the majority were peaceful but some bad apples threw projectiles and other actions which caused the officers to mobilize. The mainstream media ran with a narrative here that was simply not true and easy to manipulate. IT is very unfortunate that peaceful people were caught by agitators gunning with an agenda. Again, this is all over the news this afternoon and outlets are backing away from the original story. I find it sad that it was sensationalized all the way around by again our Media. I stopped getting emotional over these items until all the facts come out, it is healthier.

A good point of this story again is the peaceful demonstrations are being overshadowed and ruined by troublemakers and criminals. I don't care where they are from, they are a problem. Public safety at all levels is numero uno, none of this violence in any way is justifiable.

The situation you raised unfortunately is what we are going to see ad nauseum. Groups on all sides are going to scrutinize ever move, action and situation for their own agenda. The press will fan the flames for one side or the other where advantageous. It is what It is, I hate it. I don't find it helpful in any way, but you know the saying - Never Let a Good Crisis Go To Waste. And unfortunately, the above story is one in a long line of examples, it is manipulated horse puckey.

On another note, funny how a "Global Pandemic" is now no longer the talking point even though last time I checked there is no vaccine. This whole year is insane thus far.

TD
 
I am going to way in with my opinion on this tragic subject. I agree with Tom that there is no question that the rioting and looting has to be brought under control, the perpetrators arrested and prosecuted to the fill extent of the law.

That being said, the African American community has a legitimate and constitutionally protected right to protest, and peaceful protestors have to be permitted.

In the mean time, it is high time that the issue of police interaction with members of the minority community be addressed on a national level. I have watched video of, and read accounts of, literally dozens of fatal interactions between police and members of the Afrtican American community in the course of my adult life. It seems to me that there are two distinct types of incidents: (1) Lone or outnumbered police officers, often inexperienced, panic and fire when they perceive a threat to them. An example of this is the rookie Asian American NYPD who was patrolling the stairwell of a NYC Housing Authority project, panicked when he heard people running down the stairs at him and fired, killing a man who was running down the stairs with his fiancée to meet friends. (2) Circumstances where police use force to subdue a subject which ends up killing him, which the police subsequently announce involved the police using methods which they claim were part of their training and appropriate, but which to everyone else seem particularly brutal. I would propose the following solutions: (1) Require police to travel in larger vehicles like vans or SUV's, with a Sergeant and 3-4 other officers together, as opposed to alone or in pairs. This would both eliminate panic on the part of lone, inexperienced police, and make the police safer (for example in a traffic stop situation, which is, statistically, the most dangerous moment for a police officer, as they approach a driver's side door alone, not knowing what the driver plans to do). (2) Absolutely ban any training methods which allow police to do anything to the neck or head of a suspect. I am sure John from Texas can speak to this far better than a beat up old guy like me, but in the last century (around 4 decades ago), when I studied martial arts, I was taught simple wrist locks and arm bars that allowed me to subdue opponents while putting only their arms at risk, as opposed to their lives. Police must be trained never to use tactics which have proven, time and again, to cause death or paralysis. (3) Finally, as much as I respect the police, and believe that 99.999% of them are fantastic people who protect all of us, when there is a questionable incident, it cannot be left to local prosecutors and local government. A Federal Law, requiring investigation and prosecution by the FBI and United States Attorneys, will ensure that the few bad apples that are racists or corrupt are prosecuted effectively, and punished accordingly.

As long as we do not address the underlying problem, and demonstrate to the African American community that their lives do matter, we are going to see repeats of this incident, and the resulting, horrifying, rioting looting and violence. As Rich points out, since the 1960's, extremists and criminals have used peaceful protests as an opportunity to loot and instigate violence. It is only by eliminating the need to protest by addressing what is an undeniable societal problem in the United States will we ensure that the rioting and looting do not re-occur. That's my view.

I pray that this mess is over soon, that no one else's life or livelihood are put at risk, and that the families of those people killed in the course of this disaster see justice. Be safe, my friends!
 
I've kept my head low on this thread until now. Was watching Den Of Thieves with my youngest son the other day. THe climax scene was a shoot out between police, LASD, and bank robbers, both sides with full auto weapons. Police cornered bad guys at traffic stop and proceed to shoot it out. I mentioned to my son, there are about 20+ cars with civilians between the cops and bad guys. No way the police would open up with those people in between. BTW, I always wondered about Ward BOnd shooting down the street at Jimmy Stewart in It's A Wonderful Life with all the pedestrians and traffic down range (and what justified deadly force?).

Turns out I was wrong. Louisville PD, I live 25 east of Louisville, and Nat'l Gd were fired upon and they returned fire into a crowd. A restaurant owner, known for giving meals to police officers, was killed. Now I don't expect the police and Nat'l GD to be martyrs or targets, but firing blindly into a crowd? Kent State comes to mind.

As background, Louisville police did a "no knock" warrant about 2 weeks ago. The no knock aspect is disputed. Boyfriend in bed opens fire and wounds PO. Police return 20 shots and kill an EMT nurse with 8 rounds, who was not a suspect. No body camera coverage as that is not required of this squad.

Starting to see a pattern here and across the nation.

I'm retired military and a "law and order" guy. But that does not translate to killing innocent people, minority or otherwise. There's also a rise in police attacks on the media. Wonder if they will be prosecuted?

You know, I've witnessed the MLK slaying riots in the 60's, the Rodney King riots in the 90's, the Ferguson, MO riots and now this. The comments in all cases, and those on the TF have not changed. Maybe the dear departed Brad was correct with his comments about the earlier cause and effects. Never thought I would say that.

Well, got that off my chest and hope I didn't PO you guys too much and hope the Mods don't shut down this thread. CHris
 
Rich I don't want to fight about your post here, but I think you should really research the above. It has been debunked. Long story short, Federal Law Enforcement moved to clear the area as they deemed necessary. However, the majority were peaceful but some bad apples threw projectiles and other actions which caused the officers to mobilize. The mainstream media ran with a narrative here that was simply not true and easy to manipulate. IT is very unfortunate that peaceful people were caught by agitators gunning with an agenda. Again, this is all over the news this afternoon and outlets are backing away from the original story. I find it sad that it was sensationalized all the way around by again our Media. I stopped getting emotional over these items until all the facts come out, it is healthier.

A good point of this story again is the peaceful demonstrations are being overshadowed and ruined by troublemakers and criminals. I don't care where they are from, they are a problem. Public safety at all levels is numero uno, none of this violence in any way is justifiable.

The situation you raised unfortunately is what we are going to see ad nauseum. Groups on all sides are going to scrutinize ever move, action and situation for their own agenda. The press will fan the flames for one side or the other where advantageous. It is what It is, I hate it. I don't find it helpful in any way, but you know the saying - Never Let a Good Crisis Go To Waste. And unfortunately, the above story is one in a long line of examples, it is manipulated horse puckey.

On another note, funny how a "Global Pandemic" is now no longer the talking point even though last time I checked there is no vaccine. This whole year is insane thus far.

TD

Is there still a global pandemic??

I will have to research this story more but the Pastor of the Church said the demonstrators were peaceful and he was upset that Trump used his church as a background for his photo-op without permission. No worries I will drop this for now. I am getting too busy again.
 
ALL,

According to World o Meter the death toll in the US is as follows:

107,862

I predict by the 1st of July it will be 150K and over 2 million affected.

The civil unrest is going to shoot this number possibly higher.

My daughter graduated today...born in Oct right after chaos 9/11 and off to adult hood in the chaos of 2020. It is just bizarre, sad and unsettling.

John from Texas
 
Is there still a global pandemic??

I will have to research this story more but the Pastor of the Church said the demonstrators were peaceful and he was upset that Trump used his church as a background for his photo-op without permission. No worries I will drop this for now. I am getting too busy again.


Laughing at first comment, I know, as far as I know there is!

A lot of the people there were peaceful and disbursing, bad apples again caused the whole crapshow. As to the other part on the pastors, I think you and I both know, everyone has an agenda and needless to say the Guy taking the Photo and the Particular Pastor will be utilizing opposite ballots come November! As I said, - Never Let a Good Crisis Go To Waste and Control the Narrative First.....................that is our sad State on All Sides of this mess.

I tell you, if everyone would take the time they use finger pointing, blaming, scheming, stealing, re-electing, etc. instead do something in unity and positivity, things might actually change for the better and all of us would be in a better boat. Not that hard of a concept yet a lot of "brilliant" minds continually FUBAR it year after year after year.

TD
 
I am going to way in with my opinion on this tragic subject. I agree with Tom that there is no question that the rioting and looting has to be brought under control, the perpetrators arrested and prosecuted to the fill extent of the law.

That being said, the African American community has a legitimate and constitutionally protected right to protest, and peaceful protestors have to be permitted.

In the mean time, it is high time that the issue of police interaction with members of the minority community be addressed on a national level. I have watched video of, and read accounts of, literally dozens of fatal interactions between police and members of the Afrtican American community in the course of my adult life. It seems to me that there are two distinct types of incidents: (1) Lone or outnumbered police officers, often inexperienced, panic and fire when they perceive a threat to them. An example of this is the rookie Asian American NYPD who was patrolling the stairwell of a NYC Housing Authority project, panicked when he heard people running down the stairs at him and fired, killing a man who was running down the stairs with his fiancée to meet friends. (2) Circumstances where police use force to subdue a subject which ends up killing him, which the police subsequently announce involved the police using methods which they claim were part of their training and appropriate, but which to everyone else seem particularly brutal. I would propose the following solutions: (1) Require police to travel in larger vehicles like vans or SUV's, with a Sergeant and 3-4 other officers together, as opposed to alone or in pairs. This would both eliminate panic on the part of lone, inexperienced police, and make the police safer (for example in a traffic stop situation, which is, statistically, the most dangerous moment for a police officer, as they approach a driver's side door alone, not knowing what the driver plans to do). (2) Absolutely ban any training methods which allow police to do anything to the neck or head of a suspect. I am sure John from Texas can speak to this far better than a beat up old guy like me, but in the last century (around 4 decades ago), when I studied martial arts, I was taught simple wrist locks and arm bars that allowed me to subdue opponents while putting only their arms at risk, as opposed to their lives. Police must be trained never to use tactics which have proven, time and again, to cause death or paralysis. (3) Finally, as much as I respect the police, and believe that 99.999% of them are fantastic people who protect all of us, when there is a questionable incident, it cannot be left to local prosecutors and local government. A Federal Law, requiring investigation and prosecution by the FBI and United States Attorneys, will ensure that the few bad apples that are racists or corrupt are prosecuted effectively, and punished accordingly.

As long as we do not address the underlying problem, and demonstrate to the African American community that their lives do matter, we are going to see repeats of this incident, and the resulting, horrifying, rioting looting and violence. As Rich points out, since the 1960's, extremists and criminals have used peaceful protests as an opportunity to loot and instigate violence. It is only by eliminating the need to protest by addressing what is an undeniable societal problem in the United States will we ensure that the rioting and looting do not re-occur. That's my view.

I pray that this mess is over soon, that no one else's life or livelihood are put at risk, and that the families of those people killed in the course of this disaster see justice. Be safe, my friends!


Louis, the voice of reason!
Very weil put and welcome your solutions rather than the blame and punish strategy which has just kept the cycle of violence going.
 
I am going to way in with my opinion on this tragic subject. I agree with Tom that there is no question that the rioting and looting has to be brought under control, the perpetrators arrested and prosecuted to the fill extent of the law.

That being said, the African American community has a legitimate and constitutionally protected right to protest, and peaceful protestors have to be permitted.

In the mean time, it is high time that the issue of police interaction with members of the minority community be addressed on a national level. I have watched video of, and read accounts of, literally dozens of fatal interactions between police and members of the Afrtican American community in the course of my adult life. It seems to me that there are two distinct types of incidents: (1) Lone or outnumbered police officers, often inexperienced, panic and fire when they perceive a threat to them. An example of this is the rookie Asian American NYPD who was patrolling the stairwell of a NYC Housing Authority project, panicked when he heard people running down the stairs at him and fired, killing a man who was running down the stairs with his fiancée to meet friends. (2) Circumstances where police use force to subdue a subject which ends up killing him, which the police subsequently announce involved the police using methods which they claim were part of their training and appropriate, but which to everyone else seem particularly brutal. I would propose the following solutions: (1) Require police to travel in larger vehicles like vans or SUV's, with a Sergeant and 3-4 other officers together, as opposed to alone or in pairs. This would both eliminate panic on the part of lone, inexperienced police, and make the police safer (for example in a traffic stop situation, which is, statistically, the most dangerous moment for a police officer, as they approach a driver's side door alone, not knowing what the driver plans to do). (2) Absolutely ban any training methods which allow police to do anything to the neck or head of a suspect. I am sure John from Texas can speak to this far better than a beat up old guy like me, but in the last century (around 4 decades ago), when I studied martial arts, I was taught simple wrist locks and arm bars that allowed me to subdue opponents while putting only their arms at risk, as opposed to their lives. Police must be trained never to use tactics which have proven, time and again, to cause death or paralysis. (3) Finally, as much as I respect the police, and believe that 99.999% of them are fantastic people who protect all of us, when there is a questionable incident, it cannot be left to local prosecutors and local government. A Federal Law, requiring investigation and prosecution by the FBI and United States Attorneys, will ensure that the few bad apples that are racists or corrupt are prosecuted effectively, and punished accordingly.

As long as we do not address the underlying problem, and demonstrate to the African American community that their lives do matter, we are going to see repeats of this incident, and the resulting, horrifying, rioting looting and violence. As Rich points out, since the 1960's, extremists and criminals have used peaceful protests as an opportunity to loot and instigate violence. It is only by eliminating the need to protest by addressing what is an undeniable societal problem in the United States will we ensure that the rioting and looting do not re-occur. That's my view.

I pray that this mess is over soon, that no one else's life or livelihood are put at risk, and that the families of those people killed in the course of this disaster see justice. Be safe, my friends!


All right Mr. Appeals Lawyer Friend, you are weighing in, not waying in...............................:):p I just had to do it, I am sorry. I know you are using an expletive right now as you read this to describe me, I can hear it.....................!

Seriously, it is a very good post, lot of good thoughts that resonate.
TD
 
I've kept my head low on this thread until now. Was watching Den Of Thieves with my youngest son the other day. THe climax scene was a shoot out between police, LASD, and bank robbers, both sides with full auto weapons. Police cornered bad guys at traffic stop and proceed to shoot it out. I mentioned to my son, there are about 20+ cars with civilians between the cops and bad guys. No way the police would open up with those people in between. BTW, I always wondered about Ward BOnd shooting down the street at Jimmy Stewart in It's A Wonderful Life with all the pedestrians and traffic down range (and what justified deadly force?).

Turns out I was wrong. Louisville PD, I live 25 east of Louisville, and Nat'l Gd were fired upon and they returned fire into a crowd. A restaurant owner, known for giving meals to police officers, was killed. Now I don't expect the police and Nat'l GD to be martyrs or targets, but firing blindly into a crowd? Kent State comes to mind.

As background, Louisville police did a "no knock" warrant about 2 weeks ago. The no knock aspect is disputed. Boyfriend in bed opens fire and wounds PO. Police return 20 shots and kill an EMT nurse with 8 rounds, who was not a suspect. No body camera coverage as that is not required of this squad.

Starting to see a pattern here and across the nation.

I'm retired military and a "law and order" guy. But that does not translate to killing innocent people, minority or otherwise. There's also a rise in police attacks on the media. Wonder if they will be prosecuted?

You know, I've witnessed the MLK slaying riots in the 60's, the Rodney King riots in the 90's, the Ferguson, MO riots and now this. The comments in all cases, and those on the TF have not changed. Maybe the dear departed Brad was correct with his comments about the earlier cause and effects. Never thought I would say that.

Well, got that off my chest and hope I didn't PO you guys too much and hope the Mods don't shut down this thread. CHris

Good points and well said. We need civil discussions even when we have opposing views. We can all learn from other experiences.
 
ALL,

According to World o Meter the death toll in the US is as follows:

107,862

I predict by the 1st of July it will be 150K and over 2 million affected.

The civil unrest is going to shoot this number possibly higher.

My daughter graduated today...born in Oct right after chaos 9/11 and off to adult hood in the chaos of 2020. It is just bizarre, sad and unsettling.

John from Texas


John, congrats to your daughter and thanks for posting some good news. :salute:: Chris
 
My daughter is the director of marketing for Chanel North American. She is a Columbia graduate with an MBA from Fordham and I consider her to be socially liberal.
The Chanel store in SOHO, downtown NYC, was vandalized and looted. The first thing my daughter said when getting the news was "I hope they catch those low life's
and put them in jail"........I can't imagine anyone condoning these actions for any reason. Lets keep the criminals separate from the legitimate protestors.
 
I agree with you Chris.

However, here on the forum I believe we do our best to comment, debate, vent, bring up ideas, possible solutions AND like NY soldiers take actions in our community. Personally, I sent words of love and thoughts to my friends in blue, the fire department and have made an extra effort to extend my kindness to my fellow man. Had a nice conversation with a cowboy at the gas pump today and good laugh over "masking" at the gas station.

I am so tired of stories like the one you told about the "no knock" warrant that I am sick to my stomach AND thats why I continually to read the post on this thread to get educated about other incidents in cities and wrongs to ordinary citizens. I don't take the forum as a complaint department rather a release to talk via our computers to learn, understand and listen. Maybe I took the last part of yyour post wrong and If I did, I'm sorry but when you said TF I assumed Tree Frog.

Regardless, thank you for sharing whats going on in your town and I did not know about the shooting in LA or the retired police chief who was gunned down. It is getting worse, I agree and can't stand to see this happening, especially in the middle of a PANDEMIC.

Thank you you for service brother,

John from Texas
 
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