Covid-19 info (1 Viewer)

[nysoldiers]

Clearly the Covid Crisis is being used as a distraction and allowing Governments and other officials to carry out a raft of changes (including the re-writing of history) all over the globe.

This certainly isn't only happening in the USA, as an example you only have to look at what new laws the Chinese are rolling out in Hong Kong right now.

Reading some of these posts reminds my of the George Orwell novel "1984" and lets not forget the Nazi's burning of the "books".

And isn't it wonderful how the worlds media have moved their focus to BLM protests and side-lined Covid. You only have to read this thread to see how your focus has been redirected.

Its all smoke and mirrors folks. Lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story...…….

I disagree with your "re-writing history" argument in reference to this discussion. No one is saying that history as it happened shouldn't be taught, good or bad. Sometimes new facts come to light and there are always different perceptions. I don't remember any teaching about the treatment of Native Americans in this country. Many of us got our information from John Wayne Westerns. We thought Custer was a hero not an incompetent general intent on genocide. How do we teach our children right and wrong if we give them mixed messages. The Confederate States started a war to separate from our Union. Yes there were issues regarding States Rights but protecting the institution of slavery was a very significant reason for the South's decision to secede. The Confederate generals led their troops to support secession and slavery. Putting up a statue in a public place and in front of a government
building denotes an honor, not just history. Many of us think that the proper place is a museum or battlefield park. No one is saying to ban books on the Confederacy and their leaders, I have plenty in my library..
Again, I mention that Benedict Arnold has no statues in this country.. He helped win arguably the most important battle of the American Revolution. Saratoga was a turning point as it brought France and Spain to the American cause and their Navies, supplies and troops turned the Revolution in our favor. Arnold was one of our best generals but he turned on his country and that is his legacy.

We need to teach but we don't need to honor or memorialize those who committed acts agains our society. Of course their are compromises and rationalizations. For example our founding fathers were not all saints, some were slave owners and supporters of slavery. But we have to weigh that against the profound positive acts, like starting our nation and writing the Constitution. All some of us are saying is keep history alive in the right venue where it can be preserved for education purposes not in a place that represents an honorable depiction of wrongdoing,

 

[nysoldiers]

I find myself, again, somewhere philosophically between Rich and Tom on the issue of statues of confederate generals. To me, the question of whether to honor these men depends upon whether they survived the conflict (I have absolutely no problem with a statue of a man like Thomas J. Jackson, who acted with great honor and courage and died serving his State, as back then people considered themselves Virginians or New Yorkers, more than they considered themselves Americans), and what they did after the war ended. One of the greatest men the conflict immortalized was Robert E. Lee. After the war was over, a traveling African-American family entered the church where Lee and his family regularly worshipped. The remainder of these "Christians" - I use the term ironically in the case of these congregants - sought to expel this African-American family from what they had the hubris to refer to as "God's house." Robert E. Lee stopped them, and invited the African American family to come and sit in the pew reserved for Lee's family. Anybody who does not recognize the transcendent greatness of a Confederate general who acted with such grace and honor after the war, and who doesn't see that honoring him is honoring someone who embraced the ideals of America and the Civil Rights movement 100 years before the movement took flight, is missing the point. That story, more than any of his exploits as a general, is why, he is one spot above Theodore Roosevelt in my list of personal heroes.

On the other hand, with regard to those former confederate generals who actively participated in oppressing African-Americans in the Jim Crow south, I have no problem whatsoever with taking down their statues. Teaching the history of their exploits is one thing, but honoring their bigotry and racism with publically funded statues, for me, would be on the same level with Germans putting up statues of Hitler, Himmler and Goering.

Louis, I always respect your insights and I didn't know that story about Lee. Still to me Lee was a traitor to his country. I understand the loyalty to his state and it was more common back then. But we were one country and a relatively new country at that time. He went to West Point, the American Military Academy and served in the Mexican American war, his country's war. He was offered command of the union Army and turned it down. He did not try to convince the Confederate Sates to stay in the union and to give-up slavery over a period of time. He could have ended the war earlier, when he knew it was a lost cause and consequently thousand of men died unnecessarily. I don't know what was in his heart but I can't get over his actions. Just my opinion.

 

[Horus]

Clearly the Covid Crisis is being used as a distraction and allowing Governments and other officials to carry out a raft of changes (including the re-writing of history) all over the globe.

This certainly isn't only happening in the USA, as an example you only have to look at what new laws the Chinese are rolling out in Hong Kong right now.

Reading some of these posts reminds my of the George Orwell novel "1984" and lets not forget the Nazi's burning of the "books".

And isn't it wonderful how the worlds media have moved their focus to BLM protests and side-lined Covid. You only have to read this thread to see how your focus has been redirected.

Its all smoke and mirrors folks. Lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story...…….

As the Romans would have it Bread and circuses !

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis, I always respect your insights and I didn't know that story about Lee. Still to me Lee was a traitor to his country. I understand the loyalty to his state and it was more common back then. But we were one country and a relatively new country at that time. He went to West Point, the American Military Academy and served in the Mexican American war, his country's war. He was offered command of the union Army and turned it down. He did not try to convince the Confederate Sates to stay in the union and to give-up slavery over a period of time. He could have ended the war earlier, when he knew it was a lost cause and consequently thousand of men died unnecessarily. I don't know what was in his heart but I can't get over his actions. Just my opinion.

Rich,

I also respect your viewpoints, but I don't see the Confederates as traitors. After the Civil War was over, the United States Supreme Court interpreted ratifying the constitution as a State's giving up its right to leave the Union. I don't agree. I think the States considered themselves as independent mini-nations who formed a Federal Government to enable them to trade together, and mutually defend themselves against European powers such as Great Britain. I believe that States had the right to vote to leave the Union, and that, when the South chose to secede, they were acting within their rights and we should have let them go. So I don't see Lee as a traitor to the United States. Once his State voted to secede, he saw his loyalty as being with his state, Virginia, not the union it had chosen to divorce itself from. I have no problem with that. As far as extending the war, he was still trying to preserve the confederacy, the new "union" of states his state had voted to join. I think he saw Grant as an incompetent butcher, who was losing tens of thousands of Union lives in every battle by constantly attacking entrenched confederate lines. I think Lee believed he he could hold out long enough, the butcher bill would be so great that eventually northerners would rise up against Lincoln and end the war. I don't think he was far from being wrong. The draft riots here in New York demonstrate that a good portion of the common people in the North did not really believe in the ideals espoused by the Northern elite, and were sick to death of being drafted to fight and often die or be maimed for these ideals. So again, I don't see Lee as being responsible for unnecessarily extending the end of the war.

 

[OzDigger]

History is like Politics, the actual facts are known only by a rare few, it's only important what most people believe. And we tend to believe only the things that agree with our own opinions and beliefs. Debate is unlikely to change anyone's opinion, it just confirms in our own mind how 'wrong' the other person is.

 

[nysoldiers]

Rich,

I also respect your viewpoints, but I don't see the Confederates as traitors. After the Civil War was over, the United States Supreme Court interpreted ratifying the constitution as a State's giving up its right to leave the Union. I don't agree. I think the States considered themselves as independent mini-nations who formed a Federal Government to enable them to trade together, and mutually defend themselves against European powers such as Great Britain. I believe that States had the right to vote to leave the Union, and that, when the South chose to secede, they were acting within their rights and we should have let them go. So I don't see Lee as a traitor to the United States. Once his State voted to secede, he saw his loyalty as being with his state, Virginia, not the union it had chosen to divorce itself from. I have no problem with that. As far as extending the war, he was still trying to preserve the confederacy, the new "union" of states his state had voted to join. I think he saw Grant as an incompetent butcher, who was losing tens of thousands of Union lives in every battle by constantly attacking entrenched confederate lines. I think Lee believed he he could hold out long enough, the butcher bill would be so great that eventually northerners would rise up against Lincoln and end the war. I don't think he was far from being wrong. The draft riots here in New York demonstrate that a good portion of the common people in the North did not really believe in the ideals espoused by the Northern elite, and were sick to death of being drafted to fight and often die or be maimed for these ideals. So again, I don't see Lee as being responsible for unnecessarily extending the end of the war.

I see your points. I wonder what a Northern America and Southern America would have looked like? United we stand divided we fall?
Letting them secede might have opened pandora's box for future secessions and a bunch of smaller countries with less wealth, less power and more enemies at the gate!
Frankly I have more confidence in states and local governments then our Federal government. But we need Federal laws to level the playing fields for health, education and equal rights.
Lee wasn't around long enough after the war to help with the healing and I think he was exhausted by then anyway. I know he didn't talk much about the war but did tell someone that
he regretted his decision to direct a frontal assault on the Union lines at Gettysburg (Pickett's Charge).
I believe that Lincoln was sincere in trying to keep the Union together and understood that letting the South secede would hurt the future of our country.......

 

[Louis Badolato]

I see your points. I wonder what a Northern America and Southern America would have looked like? United we stand divided we fall?
Letting them secede might have opened pandora's box for future secessions and a bunch of smaller countries with less wealth, less power and more enemies at the gate!
Frankly I have more confidence in states and local governments then our Federal government. But we need Federal laws to level the playing fields for health, education and equal rights.
Lee wasn't around long enough after the war to help with the healing and I think he was exhausted by then anyway. I know he didn't talk much about the war but did tell someone that
he regretted his decision to direct a frontal assault on the Union lines at Gettysburg (Pickett's Charge).
I believe that Lincoln was sincere in trying to keep the Union together and understood that letting the South secede would hurt the future of our country.......

Rich,

I don't necessarily disagree with anything in your post. Would we have fallen pray to a foreign power had we simply recognized the Confederacy's right to leave the Union? Its very possible. Slavery certainly would have been extended for at least a time. There probably would have been an inevitable conflict between the Union and Confederacy anyway, as once they seceded, the laws about returning escaped slaves captured in the North would have been void, and the South would have ended up fighting us over what they perceived as our stealing their human property. As intelligent as he was, I am certain the disaster that was Gettysburg for Lee's forces tought Lee that attacking over open ground against entrenched enemies was an untenable tactic on a battlefield with rifles, and I'm sure he regretted his decision for the rest of life. When the remnants of Pickett's division limped back to the confederate lines, Lee met them and told Pickett, "reform your division to the rear." Pickett, horified by the losses, and what he had just seen, responded, "Sir, I have no division." I suspect Lee regretted his decisions at Gettysburg from that moment forward.

 

[Al Fisher]

Help . . . we've been hijacked! What do these last few posts have to do with Covid-19?

Bosun Al

 

[Warrior]

Help . . . we've been hijacked! What do these last few posts have to do with Covid-19?

Bosun Al

This thread is about COVID19?

The term dumpster fire comes to mind; it went from COVID19 to General Pickett having no division and General Lee being upset about Pickett's Charge.

Focus you nitwits...………………………..

 

[Desertkiwi]

I disagree with your "re-writing history" argument in reference to this discussion. No one is saying that history as it happened shouldn't be taught, good or bad. Sometimes new facts come to light and there are always different perceptions. I don't remember any teaching about the treatment of Native Americans in this country. Many of us got our information from John Wayne Westerns. We thought Custer was a hero not an incompetent general intent on genocide. How do we teach our children right and wrong if we give them mixed messages. The Confederate States started a war to separate from our Union. Yes there were issues regarding States Rights but protecting the institution of slavery was a very significant reason for the South's decision to secede. The Confederate generals led their troops to support secession and slavery. Putting up a statue in a public place and in front of a government
building denotes an honor, not just history. Many of us think that the proper place is a museum or battlefield park. No one is saying to ban books on the Confederacy and their leaders, I have plenty in my library..
Again, I mention that Benedict Arnold has no statues in this country.. He helped win arguably the most important battle of the American Revolution. Saratoga was a turning point as it brought France and Spain to the American cause and their Navies, supplies and troops turned the Revolution in our favor. Arnold was one of our best generals but he turned on his country and that is his legacy.

We need to teach but we don't need to honor or memorialize those who committed acts agains our society. Of course their are compromises and rationalizations. For example our founding fathers were not all saints, some were slave owners and supporters of slavery. But we have to weigh that against the profound positive acts, like starting our nation and writing the Constitution. All some of us are saying is keep history alive in the right venue where it can be preserved for education purposes not in a place that represents an honorable depiction of wrongdoing,

Actually my post was meant to be more about ‘distraction’ rather than the re-writing of history.

Our media here has swamped us with BLM protest action for days now which has conveniently taken the pressure off our PM for the economic devastation her harsh lockdown rules have caused here.

Although I do view the removal of controversial historical statures from public places during a pandemic as a little underhanded,especially if the communities where these statues are located haven’t beenfore-warned or even consulted.

We’ve seen similar things occur here in NZ with statues of the likes of Captain James Cook and Governor Grey vandalised by groups who see themsimply as symbols of colonialism and of our “dark” past and should be removed.

I guess statues or memorials represent a number of different things to different people. Removing them or hiding them away becausethey may cause offence in today’s world in my mind is simply denying our past.

 

[ivanmoe]

Found an interesting video clip that focuses on the treatment of folks of African descent who live in China:

I should mention that I didn't have to look very hard to find the video, as there are literally hundreds of such clips on YT.

And I should note that NONE of what I saw surprised me in the least.

What's depicted in the clip in no way excuses mistreatment of Black Americans by Americans of other races, let alone law enforcement officials, but it's interesting to see the abuses taking place so openly, particularly given China's professed love of other peoples in the developing world.

 

[hotel3alpha]

But George, I learned so much in the last few minutes about the Civil War! **** that was some rich history by NY, Louis and TD. Interesting discussion on monuments and I'll add a point. When I was in Mexico City last summer I was horrified that the historical monuments were graffitied. I asked our Uber driver why the monuments were graffitied. He had lived in DC for 25 years as a taxi driver and pointed out that in America monuments are hallowed ground and deeply regarded and respected by the public. In Mexico City, however they are used to protest working conditions, corruption and police brutality...imagine that. Seems times have changed in the US, especially since the pic I posted of the graffiti in the Alamo Plaza and the defacing of monuments nation wide.

COVID-19 INFO:

I have been following the virus in Belize (love that little country) and as of current Belize have had 2 deaths and 19 infections. When the virus hit they closed the borders from Mexico and Guatemala.

Antigua and Barbuda are officially open as of June 4th. Prime Minister Gaston Browne said international flights will continue and start welcoming tourists, however, temperatures will be taken and a "quick test" will be administered to entering visitors. Antigua (love that little country) has suffered 3 deaths from COVID and 25 positive cases.

I am noticing that in my immediate community everyone is still wearing masks...even with the heat. But, its going to get hotter and I wonder how long that will last. Me? I got a whole glove box full of masks and will mask on until we truly have an "all clear"...black nitrile gloves too...at least on right hand because of those gross debit card machines.

The protests over George Floyds death are getting worse. Did anyone see the Buffalo video of the old guy getting pushed down and immediately bleeding from the ear? I mean gushing. It is a tough time right now and I wish ever one to be safe.

John from Texas

 

[The Military Workshop]

Still to me Lee was a traitor to his country. I understand the loyalty to his state and it was more common back then. But we were one country and a relatively new country at that time.

I have no particular great knowledge of the Civil War but you you forgot to mention family and neighbours in the considerations Lee would have had to consider. Easy to say he is a traitor to his country. Him not being a "traitor" would have been to lead an Army against his own family and friends and as you say loyalty to state was greater then than it is now. Clearly you would have done the "right thing" and fought against your own family. Ok I know many did but he chose not to do so. Somehow that does not make him a traitor in my book even though he might be considered on the wrong side.

 

[Louis Badolato]

This thread is about COVID19?

The term dumpster fire comes to mind; it went from COVID19 to General Pickett having no division and General Lee being upset about Pickett's Charge.

Focus you nitwits...………………………..

Dumster fire . . . that wouldn't be outside your store after the riot . . . er, peaceful protest . . . LOL{sm4}

 

[Terp152]

Consider Gen'l George THomas, The Rock of Chickamauga. Born to a plantation family in Virginia, fought in the Mexican War, but remained loyal to the USA and honored his oath as a commissioned officer. Much more to be admired by me. Chris

 

[Terp152]

This thread is about COVID19?

The term dumpster fire comes to mind; it went from COVID19 to General Pickett having no division and General Lee being upset about Pickett's Charge.

Focus you nitwits...………………………..

Well, there's George dictating to everyone what can be discussed again. :rolleyes2:

 

[Warrior]

Well, there's George dictating to everyone what can be discussed again. :rolleyes2:

You go right ahead and discuss whatever you want.

 

[tdubel]

I can see no legitimate reason for allowing a confederate statue, flag, or anything associated with the confederacy to be displayed in a public place other than a battlefield, museum, or cemetery. To allow such memorials to be placed in public places like parks and governmental buildings is to suggest that they are being honored. Which is exactly the purpose they were placed there by segregationists decades ago. To honor traitors, racists, and those responsible for so many deaths of Americans has no place in the modern world. I don't see that as PC. It is simply wrong to honor such people. The historical aspects of the confederacy can be conveyed without memorials to honor them. Imagine a black person in the year 2020 who goes to a park in Memphis that honors a notorious KKK leader like Bedford Forrest. I gather he is being evicted soon, though.

Doug, I suggest you do some research on a few subjects:

A. Not all Confederate statues were put up during Segregation and most of those have been removed. I don't find any issue at all with that.

B. Nathan Bedford Forrest - again, take some time to read his entire story and if you are so fixated on the KKK, why not read about that part too.

Once again, it is amazing the self righteousness and generalization of your post, same old song and dance anyone who lives South of the Mason Dixon Line is nothing but racists, traitors, yada yada yada yada yada yada.

Amazing how the Civil War and how its looked at with the wonderful new rose colored lenses. I guess these statues are the new Crusades, when other ideas run out, they are easy to pick on.

Keep on spouting the talking points that are so well researched. And just for the record, I am sure you still believe Kennedy was killed by the magic bullet from Lee Harvey Oswald, keep on drinking that Kool Aid.

 

[tdubel]

I am now catching up on posts. Would like to thank Louis for the General Lee discussion, agree wholeheartedly and that was what I was taught in school about him was the reconciliation, he was seen in that way. Americans came back together, there were lots of bumps and still are, but at the end of the day they were all Americans, not traitors IMO and that is how I choose to view it. Like I said, IMO , it is a convenient narrative today to call all Confederates racists, traitors, etc etc etc, fortunately I have the choice not to follow that mantra.

On another note, my post was in no way defensive , to be frank, it was being highly pissed off. And further clarification, I don't consider books, prints, collectibles, toy soldiers Shrines to the South or Lost Cause. I consider them just what they are - collectibles, toy soldiers, dioramas. Same with any other military collectibles.

OK, enough of this, let me return to the bizzaro news world of the day where one city wants to defund their police budget and another wants to dismantle the police force all together and employ new community BLM policing................................................I must literally be dreaming, in the Twilight Zone or starring in a movie I was unaware of. *** kind of insanity is this. Well, the good news, it is in 2 places I didn't plan on retiring.

TD

 

[tdubel]

This thread is about COVID19?

The term dumpster fire comes to mind; it went from COVID19 to General Pickett having no division and General Lee being upset about Pickett's Charge.

Focus you nitwits...………………………..

Well George, as I said to you earlier - debate is one thing and it is healthy to do even if Rich and I don't disagree and the keyboard gets in the way of meaning. I don't stay pissed that long and this is not a "Lost Cause" for me that requires endless pursuit.

As to another post who I will not call out, gasoline can on fire is a better description. On a positive note, at least the Steelers remained classy and have kept their traditional uniform intact without some whackadoo Chip Kelly Oregon Nike debacle like some West Coast Team, it really must be a Far West tradition............ and the uniform will not change the result - said team will still suck.........never win the one that counts.

TD