Understand the enthusiasm for the F2A Buffalo, it is a neat aircraft. From a strictly historical POV (rivet counting), I wouldn't think displaying the F4B and F2A together would be accurate. The F4B was replaced in service by the Grumman F3F starting in 1936, with the F2A replacing the F3F starting in 1939. Because of the US Navy procurement process, there was overlap within the fleet of different aircraft types in service at a given time, ie., F4B's serving in the same time period as F3F's, F3F's serving at the same time as F2A's, but I don't think the F4B's served in frontline duty long enough to serve alongside the F2A. That said, F4B's were around in training capacities into the late 30's, and might have been used in conjunction with the F3F's at NAS training facilities, but not as frontline carrier aircraft at the same time. Anyway, displaying them together would make a neat dio, accurate or not. Perhaps JJD will tackle the F3F as well as an F2A so that the lineage would be preserved going from The F4B to F3F to F2A and then the F4F. Moe will know a lot more about the various service dates and what squadron flew what at any given time and can certainly correct me if I am in error about what aircraft flew during what time periods. Good thing I don't want much from John.:wink2:^&grin -- Al
My JJD Inter-War Aviation Collection (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mestell
- Start date
mestell
Lieutenant Colonel
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2008
- Messages
- 7,956
In my email correspondence to John when I congratulated him on an outstanding release of the F4B-4 and SARA flight decks I also added that he wouldn't "hurt my feelings" if he decided to release some US Naval WWII carrier based planes such as the Hellcat, Corsair, Avenger, Hell Diver, SBD Dauntless, et al. In his reply he said if you are going to the Chicago show "your feelings won't be hurt" at what you will see. This is the second time in less than two weeks that I have been given a hint that John will be releasing a WWII Naval carrier based airplane. The first hint was given to me as a response to a comment I made on one of the JJD Greet and Meet threads . . . . More good things are coming . . .
:smile2: Mike
Medic 314/79th
Private 2
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2017
- Messages
- 148
I would love to see a feature not typically offered and maybe because it's not possible realistically enough. But spinning propellors would be very cool looking.
I know clear acetate discs are not very realistic, but perhaps cast or molded and the blurred tips air brushed lightly?
either make versions with spinning props and those without, or make them replaceable with the static ones? nothing more dramatic than a massive F4U straining at the brakes under full take off power, and the launch captain giving the pilot the LAUNCH sign! Or even a Dauntless in June 1942 somewhere near Midway island.......
jazzeum
Four Star General
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 38,270
Al, you're correct. In my research, F2A-1s were not delivered to the Saratoga until 1939 and then only in limited quantities. Presumably, the carrier decks would work. Alternatively, instead of making a USN one, John could do a B339 variant in RAF colors for the South Asia Pacific Theatre.
Terp152
Major
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 6,092
Cannon fodder for Zeros! Chris
So true, but then again, just about everything else was too for a couple of years there. :wink2: -- Al
Yes, I believe that was the opinion of the USMC pilots who flew it at Midway. -- Al
Terp152
Major
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 6,092
Agreed, but the WIldcat gave a good account of itself, especially as USN and USMC pilots gained experience and implemented the Thatch Weave. Chris
The squadron was actually VMF-221 under command of Maj. Floyd Parks. 221 went into the action with 21 Buffaloes and 7 Wildcats. 14 of the VMF-221 pilots, including Parks, were shot down and killed. 4 more were wounded and of the 13 surviving aircraft, only 2 were serviceable. Not hard to see where the term 'flying coffins' would come from. -- Al
Sure did. It all turned on tactics. Same with the P-40 to a large degree. Correct tactics made a huge difference in negating the advantage the Zero had. Japanese aviators took a much longer time to adapt their tactics and it cost them. -- Al
Forgot to list that the 221 losses were 12 F2A's and 2 F4F's in combat. Claims by 221 were for 12 aircraft shot down, 6 by F2A pilots and 6 by F4F pilots, plus several more damaged. -- Al
mestell
Lieutenant Colonel
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2008
- Messages
- 7,956
I have put in my September orders for IWA-11, IWA-300, and IWA 400 . . . . Seems like the introduction of the first release was a success . . . . my suppliers have all of these now on back order . . . Hopefully there won't be too long a wait or September might be a very long month for me . . . .
:smile2: Mike
:smile2: Mike
Terp152
Major
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 6,092
Thanks for the heads up on the back ordered items Mike. I have placed my order for the deck sections today.
Rec'd my F4B section leader yesterday and what a beauty! Can't get the pilot into the cockpit. How did you manage it? Chris
Hoverbug
Private 2
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Messages
- 103
Sideways with a twist
mestell
Lieutenant Colonel
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2008
- Messages
- 7,956
Basically what Hoverbug stated . . . . carefully sideways with a twist . . . Tried giving you a call to see if I could talk through it, no answer. I have not tried taking him back out . . . .
Mike
Just took the pilot out of the cockpit just to see if I could . . . . He came out a lot easier than he went in. To put him back in: From the left side, place pilot legs first into the cockpit so that most of his body is outside it and he is looking at the ground. Holding on to his head carefully twist him upward and clockwise . . . he should drop right into position.
Last edited:
Nothing easy about being a US Navy pilot with those Wings of Gold.:wink2:^&grin -- Al
ivanmoe
Command Sergeant Major
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2013
- Messages
- 2,959
Japanese air tactics were a lot like their infantry tactics, which is to say fairly primitive. In the case of its air groups, some of this was technological in nature. For example, the radios carried in its 1942-era, Zero fighters were single-channel sets that were reception-only. In theory, the units could have been used to direct intercepts of incoming enemies. However, they were heavy and pilots preferred to fly CAP without them! Fighters defending a Japanese task force simply flew high above it and waited. If a ship below them spotted an enemy, it would fire its weapons in the direction of the threat and hope the CAP noticed. Sometimes the magic worked, and sometimes it didn't. The whole thesis behind Parshall and Tully's Shattered Sword is that the Japanese carriers at Midway were essentially doomed before they set sail. Their well-supported argument is that the Kido Butai's air defenses were so weak as to be virtually doomed in the face of a competent enemy confronting it in significant numbers. The Japanese were simply overwhelmed.
As to the fighter tactics of its air elements, there really weren't any in the sense of those exhibited by Western air forces. There was no "Vic" or "Finger Four." Success was dependent on the skill and comittment of the individual in single-warrior combat, and to numbers. The idea was simply to swamp and overwhelm the enemy with its very nimble fighters. Formations weren't one iota more sophisticated than the gaggles sent aloft by air forces in WWI. Fighters formed up on their leader, flew to the target and attacked when signalled to do so. From then on out, they were on their own. This worked well enough early in the war. A squadron or two garrisoning an Allied base stood little chance when attacked by a force which outnumbered it 2-1 in fighters alone. The result was usually decimation for the defenders and the appearance of invincibility for the Japanese air groups. However, there were serious cracks in the facade from the beginning. Even in the days of the early conquests, the Japanese experienced significant and unstainable losses to pilots and aircrew, as the Allied pilots were "dishing out" pretty much "as good as they got." By the end of 1942, the losses were so severe as to constitute well over one-hundred-percent of the frontline pilots and aircrew with which Japanese carrier air groups had started the war a year earlier.
Above this post, Al was discussing the Brewster Buffalo and its apparent failure, with a lesser number of Wildcats, to defend Midway effectively. While absolutely valid, it's important to note the losses that the defenders inflicted on the Japanese strike, not only in planes downed, but also those damaged. The outnumbered garrison actually beat the Japanese up pretty well. A key figure, Joichi Tomonaga, the leader of Hiryu's torpedo squadron, survived the attack, but his Kate was damaged. Tomonaga subsequently took off to counterattack the American carriers knowing that he could never make it back in a plane leaking fuel like a sieve. He went aloft anyhow, yet another casualty of Midway's Buffalo fighters. Had the Japanese simply withdrawn after the Midway air-strike, the battle would have fit the pattern of Japanese operations throughout the first year of the war. The air group had gone in, punished the defenders, and accomplished many of its immediate objectives. However, the Buffaloes had really gotten their attention and attacks were still coming at the ships of the carrier group. The Japanese subsequently stuck to their plan and unsuccessfully sought to adapt to unexpected events. They unknowingly elected to fight it out with a determined enemy of roughly equal numbers that was supported by land-based strike and patrol assets. And they got crushed.
-Moe