Shootings In El Paso (4 Viewers)

Regarding the "epidemic", it's interesting to go beyond the media and look at the FBI's own count, compiled in this document here:

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-2000-2018.pdf/view

there have been the following counts of "active shooter incidents", as they call it:

2000: 1
2001: 6
2002: 4
2003: 11
2004: 4
2005: 9
2006: 10
2007: 14
2008: 8
2009: 19
2010: 26
2011: 10
2012: 21
2013: 17
2014: 20
2015: 20
2016: 20
2017: 30
2018: 27

If you read the doc, you might find yourself saying, "I've never even heard of some of these cases."

Has the number gone up over the past 19 years? Yes. Is it an epidemic? I'm skeptical. I would certainly be wary of the way the media present any information on this topic, because of the innate bias of most people in journalism, and because they need to get ratings. For you outside the US, I'd be even more skeptical of my news sources, if I were you.

I think a more important element to address is one that some of you have touched on, and that is, mental health. I don't think the problem is the availability of guns as much as it is that we do a poor job of identifying people who may have mental problems, that would lead them to act out violently. The murderer in Dayton is a case in point. He showed signs in high school that he might one day turn violent towards people around him, eg keeping a "rape list". The murderer in
Parkland, FL last year had been on the school's radar and law enforcement's radar (federal and local), yet he was not detained. It seems to me that we need to focus more on identifying, diagnosing, and confining people who exhibit a pattern of violent behavior or tendencies to it, than we do now.
 
waynepoo said:
After this, one would think something has to be done regarding the gun laws in the US, according to Wikipedia there are 112.6 guns per one hundred people in the US, the next highest is Serbia with 58.2! Now that is disturbing to say the least.
Click to expand...

As the saying goes, "if you don't change anything, nothing will change."

Such an amazing country, full of wonderful people, being torn apart by gun violence. It's an absolute travesty.
 
Baron,

I think we need to distinguish "active shooting incident" versus "mass shooting". Per the FBI here is there definition:

FBI definition for mass killings: those in which four or more people were killed, not including the shooter.

If so, the report you cited is missing the 58 killed in the Las Vegas massacre in 2017. The 49 in Orlando (2016) and the 27 at Sandyhook (2012) and the 32 at Virginia Tech (2007). Something ain't right and I think its a pandemic as mass shootings are happening all over the world and remember ole El Paso boy cited Christchurch, NZ as an inspiration, er go a spree he agreed with.

Shame on them all...including the FBI for splitting hairs.

John from Texas
 
hotel3alpha said:
Baron,

I think we need to distinguish "active shooting incident" versus "mass shooting". Per the FBI here is there definition:

FBI definition for mass killings: those in which four or more people were killed, not including the shooter.

If so, the report you cited is missing the 58 killed in the Las Vegas massacre in 2017. The 49 in Orlando (2016) and the 27 at Sandyhook (2012) and the 32 at Virginia Tech (2007). Something ain't right and I think its a pandemic as mass shootings are happening all over the world and remember ole El Paso boy cited Christchurch, NZ as an inspiration, er go a spree he agreed with.

Shame on them all...including the FBI for splitting hairs.

John from Texas
Click to expand...

I don't care how you define it, these incidents are either being perpetrated by a criminal or a nutjob, not the gun. Put a bomb, knife, bat, blackjack, etc in the hands of these types of people and you get the same result. It is not the weapon and no amount of "gun control" is going to curb this. Identifying the perp is, so background checks, flag lists, mental health history, it should all be fair game in issuing a license to own a firearm. If a criminal (and that is what these people are) want to do great violence and bodily harm, it is up to our human system to stop them.

"The AR 15 ain't killing anyone, the person pulling the trigger certainly is".

TD
 
tdubel said:
I don't care how you define it, these incidents are either being perpetrated by a criminal or a nutjob, not the gun. Put a bomb, knife, bat, blackjack, etc in the hands of these types of people and you get the same result. It is not the weapon and no amount of "gun control" is going to curb this. Identifying the perp is, so background checks, flag lists, mental health history, it should all be fair game in issuing a license to own a firearm. If a criminal (and that is what these people are) want to do great violence and bodily harm, it is up to our human system to stop them.

"The AR 15 ain't killing anyone, the person pulling the trigger certainly is".

TD
Click to expand...

This has to be one of the most bizarre posts I have ever read on TF. Unbelievable!
 
The equation is simple...You can't shoot someone without a gun or put another way, remove the gun and you can't shoot someone.
 
waynepoo said:
The equation is simple...You can't shoot someone without a gun or put another way, remove the gun and you can't shoot someone.
Click to expand...

There are two things Americans will never, ever agree on; gun control and the causes of the American Civil War, a war that ended over 150 years ago but still rages on to this day.

Gun control; 50% of Americans agree with you, 50% of them don't.

So it is written, so shall it be.

Rinse, rather, repeat.
 
tdubel said:
I don't care how you define it, these incidents are either being perpetrated by a criminal or a nutjob, not the gun. Put a bomb, knife, bat, blackjack, etc in the hands of these types of people and you get the same result. It is not the weapon and no amount of "gun control" is going to curb this. Identifying the perp is, so background checks, flag lists, mental health history, it should all be fair game in issuing a license to own a firearm. If a criminal (and that is what these people are) want to do great violence and bodily harm, it is up to our human system to stop them.

"The AR 15 ain't killing anyone, the person pulling the trigger certainly is".

TD
Click to expand...

Tom,

Your right. No amount of gun control is going to stop a criminal or a nut job from creating chaos. And I too loathe the definitions and find no solace in separating this killing from that one via terms. It is violence against humanity plain and simple one way or another. As I said before...Its a mess.

John from Texas
 
Desertkiwi said:
This has to be one of the most bizarre posts I have ever read on TF. Unbelievable!
Click to expand...

Seriously, how do you find it bizarre? What I find unbelievable is posts from people who have never walked in the shoes of another and then cast judgement on someone else? That is part of the problem we have in America at all levels including our political leaders from all parties.

I don't think anything about my post is bizarre as again, I don't know how many times you can define it, but people who commit these acts of violence are nutjobs and criminals. Where is that bizarre? I guess in your world an AR 15 wakes up in the morning and wills a human being to pull its trigger and kill people? Now , personally, I find that bizarre.

As I stated before, my family is a victim of one of these acts, and in my opinion, one of the most horrific of them due to the shooter and his motivations.


I think George posted it best, IN THE USA, we have very diverse opinions on many topics and I like it that way.


Maybe if you care to state your opinion, you should consider doing it a little more explanative instead of lobbing a generalization designed to provoke a reaction. Well you got the latter point. And as I said before, I am a proud responsible gun owner for sport and protection and I sleep soundly every night.
 
tdubel said:
Seriously, how do you find it bizarre? What I find unbelievable is posts from people who have never walked in the shoes of another and then cast judgement on someone else? That is part of the problem we have in America at all levels including our political leaders from all parties.

I don't think anything about my post is bizarre as again, I don't know how many times you can define it, but people who commit these acts of violence are nutjobs and criminals. Where is that bizarre? I guess in your world an AR 15 wakes up in the morning and wills a human being to pull its trigger and kill people? Now , personally, I find that bizarre.

As I stated before, my family is a victim of one of these acts, and in my opinion, one of the most horrific of them due to the shooter and his motivations.


I think George posted it best, IN THE USA, we have very diverse opinions on many topics and I like it that way.


Maybe if you care to state your opinion, you should consider doing it a little more explanative instead of lobbing a generalization designed to provoke a reaction. Well you got the latter point. And as I said before, I am a proud responsible gun owner for sport and protection and I sleep soundly every night.
Click to expand...

Me too Tom...as in responsible gun owner and sleeping good at night...we got a lot of problems in the US and right now this (gun violence) is in the spotlight. I was reading the local news this morning and there was a dude in the south of town who committed a murder suicide claiming three lives including his. A few days ago two kids both 21 walked up to a 78 year old man who was pumping gas and executed him on another part of town. They caught them, but ***? In another story a 21 year old man shot a 15 year old kid in the face and killed him and on and on and on it goes. And will continue to go.

Violence via a weapon is an every day occurrence and they are all senseless. None of us are immune to being affected by this type of violence and Tom you are living proof that it gets closer to home everyday. Yes, the problem is on all levels of the government, but we as citizens are responsible too. So, what to do? There are a million answers and none of us will agree or maybe we will, but until then...it goes on and on and on.

John from Texas
 
Some very good thoughts and points of view in this thread. I agree these mass shootings are very sad and tragic. And I respect every ones opinion, whether I agree or not.

But how come we are not hearing anything from the mass media or all the blowhard politicians about what is going on in big cities EVERY week.

Chicago just this past weekend:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-killed-most-violent-weekend-2019/1334351001/

52 shot; 10 killed. Just this LAST weekend alone. Chicago is a war zone. The wild, wild west. Do you think the people committing these shootings are going to be stopped by another gun law?
Of course not. The politicians are not talking about this because they have failed this country. And the liberal media isn't talking about this because you know what party is in power in these big cities.

How many children in these cities are growing up in broken homes, with no father, no supervision, no adult guidance, and no respect for each other or anyone else.
Is passing another gun law going to fix that?

Walt
 
hotel3alpha said:
Me too Tom...as in responsible gun owner and sleeping good at night...we got a lot of problems in the US and right now this (gun violence) is in the spotlight. I was reading the local news this morning and there was a dude in the south of town who committed a murder suicide claiming three lives including his. A few days ago two kids both 21 walked up to a 78 year old man who was pumping gas and executed him on another part of town. They caught them, but ***? In another story a 21 year old man shot a 15 year old kid in the face and killed him and on and on and on it goes. And will continue to go.

Violence via a weapon is an every day occurrence and they are all senseless. None of us are immune to being affected by this type of violence and Tom you are living proof that it gets closer to home everyday. Yes, the problem is on all levels of the government, but we as citizens are responsible too. So, what to do? There are a million answers and none of us will agree or maybe we will, but until then...it goes on and on and on.

John from Texas
Click to expand...

John,
you must have been on the phone with George and me!! Your post is just about word for word what we said, you must be bugging my phone/email!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Tom
 
Just a few updates from here on the ground in El Paso, TX. There must be 10 or more Walmart stores in town and each one has
at least 1 armed police officer posted at each one. No doubt a welcome but sad reality of the times in which we now live.
Not sure if it is Walmart itself or the city placing the added security but better proactive than reactive !

Wayne
 
The issue with guns is even if they wanted to ban certain ones, there is too much grey area.

I'm no gun expert, but where do you draw the line between automatic and semi automatic weapons.

An assault rifle is automatic, but a pistol or a rifle can be semi automatic, so if you for instance banned all automatic weapons, then more mass shootings occur and the weapon of choice is a pistol/someone strapped with half a dozen pistols, what do you do then?

The real problem is something should have been done a long time ago in the way of stricter gun control, you should have to pass a battery of tests to determine if you are of sound mind to own a weapon and very, very thorough background checks should have been put into place, anyone who buys a firearm should be REQUIRED to take shooting lessons and gun safety classes. They don't just hand out drivers licenses, you have to pass a written test to get a learners permit, you are under strict regulations as to when you can and can't drive with it, they you have to pass a drivers test to get a license, I don't hear anyone complaining that they were profiled and targeted over that.

Then the issue becomes "Oh gee, you're infringing on my rights, I have a right to bear arms, all of these tests are unfair, boo ****ing hoo, woe is me"...……………….

Also, it boggles my mind about how unaware people are; for example, that fruitloop that brought an arsenal into the hotel in Vegas; you mean to tell me with all the cameras in place, no one saw anything to tip someone off that that guy was bringing enough weapons into that hotel to start World War III?

Again; if someone suspected something and gave him a hard time, then the fallback is "Oh gee, woe is me, you're singling me out, you're being mean to me, this is not right, what did I do?" and if it turned out he did not have weapons, some ambulance chaser would sue the pants off of the hotel.

After 9/11, the airlines cracked down, you have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get on a plane now, you are strictly regulated as to what you can and can't bring on a plane, yet you can buy a weapon and no one says a word to you, there is something drastically wrong with that.


We live in a world where people are afraid to do or say anything or else it will end up on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and you're a bad person, you're racist, you profile certain people, who needs the headache.

So people mind their own business and the result is mass shootings.

Like my late Father said "If they did nothing after Sandy Hook, they never will"...……………..pops was right, as usual.

Ok fellas, carry on.
 
Some very sad updates....

Bullet proof backpacks for students going back to school are selling off the shelves!

A car backfired in Times Square NYC yesterday and caused a stampede of people running for their lives!

Parents are telling their children they are not allowed to go to malls anymore!

Schools are advertising for armed guards, retired police officers. My local library is looking to hire an armed guard.

Parents are scared to send their children to schools, recent surveys found that 75% of parents are scared or nervous about
sending their kids to schools.

This is what America is becoming.......350 million guns in our country. Of course its not just gun control, we have to address mental illness, social media and political rhetoric. There should be mandatory training classes for all gun owners with updates every few years and maybe re-registering and testing like we do for driver's licenses.
But "Gun control" has to be a part of the solution.....better background checks, banning military style guns and high content magazines, limiting the amount of guns an individual can own and more effective law enforcement and prosecutions.

We're not going to take away guns from law abiding citizens but there are loopholes we can close at gun shows and private sales, we can come up with a "buy back" initiative for assault weapons and going forward making sure that
both government and the private sector are closely monitored for losses and illegal transfers.

I would hope there are smarter and more experienced people who will work on this national problem. Other countries have been successful in limiting gun violence so lets at least consult with them.
 
Warrior said:
The issue with guns is even if they wanted to ban certain ones, there is too much grey area.

I'm no gun expert, but where do you draw the line between automatic and semi automatic weapons.

An assault rifle is automatic, but a pistol or a rifle can be semi automatic, so if you for instance banned all automatic weapons, then more mass shootings occur and the weapon of choice is a pistol/someone strapped with half a dozen pistols, what do you do then?

The real problem is something should have been done a long time ago in the way of stricter gun control, you should have to pass a battery of tests to determine if you are of sound mind to own a weapon and very, very thorough background checks should have been put into place, anyone who buys a firearm should be REQUIRED to take shooting lessons and gun safety classes. They don't just hand out drivers licenses, you have to pass a written test to get a learners permit, you are under strict regulations as to when you can and can't drive with it, they you have to pass a drivers test to get a license, I don't hear anyone complaining that they were profiled and targeted over that.

Then the issue becomes "Oh gee, you're infringing on my rights, I have a right to bear arms, all of these tests are unfair, boo ****ing hoo, woe is me"...……………….

Also, it boggles my mind about how unaware people are; for example, that fruitloop that brought an arsenal into the hotel in Vegas; you mean to tell me with all the cameras in place, no one saw anything to tip someone off that that guy was bringing enough weapons into that hotel to start World War III?

Again; if someone suspected something and gave him a hard time, then the fallback is "Oh gee, woe is me, you're singling me out, you're being mean to me, this is not right, what did I do?" and if it turned out he did not have weapons, some ambulance chaser would sue the pants off of the hotel.

After 9/11, the airlines cracked down, you have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get on a plane now, you are strictly regulated as to what you can and can't bring on a plane, yet you can buy a weapon and no one says a word to you, there is something drastically wrong with that.


We live in a world where people are afraid to do or say anything or else it will end up on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and you're a bad person, you're racist, you profile certain people, who needs the headache.

So people mind their own business and the result is mass shootings.

Like my late Father said "If they did nothing after Sandy Hook, they never will"...……………..pops was right, as usual.

Ok fellas, carry on.
Click to expand...
Agree with George and wrote my response before I saw this.
 
wds0855 said:
Some very good thoughts and points of view in this thread. I agree these mass shootings are very sad and tragic. And I respect every ones opinion, whether I agree or not.

But how come we are not hearing anything from the mass media or all the blowhard politicians about what is going on in big cities EVERY week.

Chicago just this past weekend:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-killed-most-violent-weekend-2019/1334351001/

52 shot; 10 killed. Just this LAST weekend alone. Chicago is a war zone. The wild, wild west. Do you think the people committing these shootings are going to be stopped by another gun law?
Of course not. The politicians are not talking about this because they have failed this country. And the liberal media isn't talking about this because you know what party is in power in these big cities.

How many children in these cities are growing up in broken homes, with no father, no supervision, no adult guidance, and no respect for each other or anyone else.
Is passing another gun law going to fix that?

Walt
Click to expand...

Great post. I agree 100%
Mark
 
I am a Retired Army Senior NCO....combat arms and twice over combat veteran. I support the 2nd amendment but I do feel we can do more
to not make it so easy for those wanting to cause harm to do so, as was this past weekend. Who really needs 100 round drum mags to target
shoot or have a Semi auto high capacity ammo rifle for home protection ? Problem is these weapons have been out on the market for decades. Banning them now still leaves tens of thousands of them already in circulation. Something needs to change.
Thoughts and prayers for the victims just does not cut it for me !

Wayne
 
I told my high school daughter I could put a half inch steel plate in her backpack to make it bulletproof.:p
 
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