Shootings In El Paso (1 Viewer)

[ccdc11]

Please be aware.. Chicago is not a war zone.. two sections of Chicago that have been overrun by gangs for 70 years are a war zone...
The rest of the city is normal everyday america..

 

[Warrior]

Please be aware.. Chicago is not a war zone.. two sections of Chicago that have been overrun by gangs for 70 years are a war zone...
The rest of the city is normal everyday america..

And to further this, someone mentioned the Chicago toy soldier show and how it's held in Chicago; no, it is not, it's in a hotel in Schaumberg, which is in the suburbs north and slightly west of the city, so no fear, you won't need to take an armored car from the airport to get to the show, far from it, there is a huge mall across the street and loads of dining choices up and down the main road...……………...

 

[Panzer ace]

And to further this, someone mentioned the Chicago toy soldier show and how it's held in Chicago; no, it is not, it's in a hotel in Schaumberg, which is in the suburbs north and slightly west of the city, so no fear, you won't need to take an armored car from the airport to get to the show, far from it, there is a huge mall across the street and loads of dining choices up and down the main road...……………...

Yup, it has been my experience that Neiman Marcus is rarely located in the "war zone" part of town.

 

[jazzeum]

Please be aware.. Chicago is not a war zone.. two sections of Chicago that have been overrun by gangs for 70 years are a war zone...
The rest of the city is normal everyday america..

Besides going to the Show (which is not really in Chicago), I’ve visited Chicago several times and it’s a city I’d love to live in. One time, I was there doing a deal and the cabbie got into an accident and I suffered some minor injury. The police officer was going to take me to Northwestern but the bridge was up so he took me to the next closest hospital, a hospital in one of the African American parts of Chicago, and her dropped me off there. The hospital was fine and I never felt worried about my safety.

 

[ccdc11]

Yup, it has been my experience that Neiman Marcus is rarely located in the "war zone" part of town.

LOL.. I don't know, have you seen their fall gang jackets line??? Color coordinated bandanas and shoes sold separately..

 

[Desertkiwi]

Seriously, how do you find it bizarre? What I find unbelievable is posts from people who have never walked in the shoes of another and then cast judgement on someone else? That is part of the problem we have in America at all levels including our political leaders from all parties.

I don't think anything about my post is bizarre as again, I don't know how many times you can define it, but people who commit these acts of violence are nutjobs and criminals. Where is that bizarre? I guess in your world an AR 15 wakes up in the morning and wills a human being to pull its trigger and kill people? Now , personally, I find that bizarre.

As I stated before, my family is a victim of one of these acts, and in my opinion, one of the most horrific of them due to the shooter and his motivations.


I think George posted it best, IN THE USA, we have very diverse opinions on many topics and I like it that way.


Maybe if you care to state your opinion, you should consider doing it a little more explanative instead of lobbing a generalization designed to provoke a reaction. Well you got the latter point. And as I said before, I am a proud responsible gun owner for sport and protection and I sleep soundly every night.

To be honest I wouldn't know where to start, so just not going to bother.

For the record though, I'm a serving NZ police officer and worked the frontline most of my career. Have been stabbed in the head while on duty and extremely lucky to be here. I deal with victims everyday and a raft of folks needing help and a wide array of criminals.

I know guns and know how much damage they can do first hand.

After the Christchurch Mosque shooting here in NZ, I spent the next 3x months tooled up wearing extra body armour, carrying a Taser, Glock and M4 bushmaster helping to protect religious venues around the clock.

This horrendous incident has had a profound effect on most Kiwi's and our Prime Minister took action accordingly. While I don't necessarily agree with everything our government has done in response. The fact is they responded quickly and with a purpose.

As I said earlier, 'if you don't change anything, nothing will change'

Thanking you.

 

[hotel3alpha]

John,
you must have been on the phone with George and me!! Your post is just about word for word what we said, you must be bugging my phone/email!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom

...I am...

John from Texas

 

[hotel3alpha]

The issue with guns is even if they wanted to ban certain ones, there is too much grey area.

I'm no gun expert, but where do you draw the line between automatic and semi automatic weapons.

An assault rifle is automatic, but a pistol or a rifle can be semi automatic, so if you for instance banned all automatic weapons, then more mass shootings occur and the weapon of choice is a pistol/someone strapped with half a dozen pistols, what do you do then?

The real problem is something should have been done a long time ago in the way of stricter gun control, you should have to pass a battery of tests to determine if you are of sound mind to own a weapon and very, very thorough background checks should have been put into place, anyone who buys a firearm should be REQUIRED to take shooting lessons and gun safety classes. They don't just hand out drivers licenses, you have to pass a written test to get a learners permit, you are under strict regulations as to when you can and can't drive with it, they you have to pass a drivers test to get a license, I don't hear anyone complaining that they were profiled and targeted over that.

Then the issue becomes "Oh gee, you're infringing on my rights, I have a right to bear arms, all of these tests are unfair, boo ****ing hoo, woe is me"...……………….

Also, it boggles my mind about how unaware people are; for example, that fruitloop that brought an arsenal into the hotel in Vegas; you mean to tell me with all the cameras in place, no one saw anything to tip someone off that that guy was bringing enough weapons into that hotel to start World War III?

Again; if someone suspected something and gave him a hard time, then the fallback is "Oh gee, woe is me, you're singling me out, you're being mean to me, this is not right, what did I do?" and if it turned out he did not have weapons, some ambulance chaser would sue the pants off of the hotel.

After 9/11, the airlines cracked down, you have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get on a plane now, you are strictly regulated as to what you can and can't bring on a plane, yet you can buy a weapon and no one says a word to you, there is something drastically wrong with that.


We live in a world where people are afraid to do or say anything or else it will end up on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and you're a bad person, you're racist, you profile certain people, who needs the headache.

So people mind their own business and the result is mass shootings.

Like my late Father said "If they did nothing after Sandy Hook, they never will"...……………..pops was right, as usual.

Ok fellas, carry on.

George when can I be a guest on your pod cast?

John from Texas

 

[hotel3alpha]

Some very good thoughts and points of view in this thread. I agree these mass shootings are very sad and tragic. And I respect every ones opinion, whether I agree or not.

But how come we are not hearing anything from the mass media or all the blowhard politicians about what is going on in big cities EVERY week.

Chicago just this past weekend:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-killed-most-violent-weekend-2019/1334351001/

52 shot; 10 killed. Just this LAST weekend alone. Chicago is a war zone. The wild, wild west. Do you think the people committing these shootings are going to be stopped by another gun law?
Of course not. The politicians are not talking about this because they have failed this country. And the liberal media isn't talking about this because you know what party is in power in these big cities.

How many children in these cities are growing up in broken homes, with no father, no supervision, no adult guidance, and no respect for each other or anyone else.
Is passing another gun law going to fix that?

Walt

Walt you nailed it.

John from Texas

 

[hotel3alpha]

That's hyperbole. While horrific, it's hardly a pandemic, and they're not happening "all over the world".

Baron,

Respectfully disagree and heres why:

Christchurch, NZ 51 souls

Norway, Sweden 77 souls

Peshwar, Pakistan 149 souls 132 of which were children

Mumbia, India 174 souls

Port Arthur, Australia 35 souls

France (hebdo) 12 souls

Russia has a whole list of them...

...and on and on and on just look it up or go off recent memory. Its world-wide brother.

John from Texas

 

[jrsteel]

The issue with guns is even if they wanted to ban certain ones, there is too much grey area.

I'm no gun expert, but where do you draw the line between automatic and semi automatic weapons.

An assault rifle is automatic, but a pistol or a rifle can be semi automatic, so if you for instance banned all automatic weapons, then more mass shootings occur and the weapon of choice is a pistol/someone strapped with half a dozen pistols, what do you do then?

The real problem is something should have been done a long time ago in the way of stricter gun control, you should have to pass a battery of tests to determine if you are of sound mind to own a weapon and very, very thorough background checks should have been put into place, anyone who buys a firearm should be REQUIRED to take shooting lessons and gun safety classes. They don't just hand out drivers licenses, you have to pass a written test to get a learners permit, you are under strict regulations as to when you can and can't drive with it, they you have to pass a drivers test to get a license, I don't hear anyone complaining that they were profiled and targeted over that.

Then the issue becomes "Oh gee, you're infringing on my rights, I have a right to bear arms, all of these tests are unfair, boo ****ing hoo, woe is me"...……………….

Also, it boggles my mind about how unaware people are; for example, that fruitloop that brought an arsenal into the hotel in Vegas; you mean to tell me with all the cameras in place, no one saw anything to tip someone off that that guy was bringing enough weapons into that hotel to start World War III?

Again; if someone suspected something and gave him a hard time, then the fallback is "Oh gee, woe is me, you're singling me out, you're being mean to me, this is not right, what did I do?" and if it turned out he did not have weapons, some ambulance chaser would sue the pants off of the hotel.

After 9/11, the airlines cracked down, you have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get on a plane now, you are strictly regulated as to what you can and can't bring on a plane, yet you can buy a weapon and no one says a word to you, there is something drastically wrong with that.


We live in a world where people are afraid to do or say anything or else it will end up on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and you're a bad person, you're racist, you profile certain people, who needs the headache.

So people mind their own business and the result is mass shootings.

Like my late Father said "If they did nothing after Sandy Hook, they never will"...……………..pops was right, as usual.

Ok fellas, carry on.

Agree with this totally. You can be on the No Fly List, meaning you can't get on a plane because they're afraid you might blow it up, but it's OK to go and buy an AR 15 and thousands of rounds of ammo. What sense does that make? Gun people say well they could've used a knife or a bat instead. Well how come they never do? Why do they always use an AR-15? You might be able to kill one or two people with a knife before you're subdued instead of 30 with a rifle. There are crazy criminal people in every country just like here. But they don't have access to guns like here, hence no mass shootings. It's pretty simple. You're right about Sandy Hook. If we didn't do anything after a bunch of kindergarten kids were killed, we never will. In fact our society is so warped that there's a segment of people who believe Sandy Hook was a hoax.

 

[hotel3alpha]

To be honest I wouldn't know where to start, so just not going to bother.

For the record though, I'm a serving NZ police officer and worked the frontline most of my career. Have been stabbed in the head while on duty and extremely lucky to be here. I deal with victims everyday and a raft of folks needing help and a wide array of criminals.

I know guns and know how much damage they can do first hand.

After the Christchurch Mosque shooting here in NZ, I spent the next 3x months tooled up wearing extra body armour, carrying a Taser, Glock and M4 bushmaster helping to protect religious venues around the clock.

This horrendous incident has had a profound effect on most Kiwi's and our Prime Minister took action accordingly. While I don't necessarily agree with everything our government has done in response. The fact is they responded quickly and with a purpose.

As I said earlier, 'if you don't change anything, nothing will change'

Thanking you.

No Desert...thanking you for your service.

John from Texas

 

[hotel3alpha]

Agree with this totally. You can be on the No Fly List, meaning you can't get on a plane because they're afraid you might blow it up, but it's OK to go and buy an AR 15 and thousands of rounds of ammo. What sense does that make? Gun people say well they could've used a knife or a bat instead. Well how come they never do? Why do they always use an AR-15? You might be able to kill one or two people with a knife before you're subdued instead of 30 with a rifle. There are crazy criminal people in every country just like here. But they don't have access to guns like here, hence no mass shootings. It's pretty simple. You're right about Sandy Hook. If we didn't do anything after a bunch of kindergarten kids were killed, we never will. In fact our society is so warped that there's a segment of people who believe Sandy Hook was a hoax.

JR,

Don't get me started on hoax's. I ended a relationship with a client because he loudly proclaimed the Las Vegas shooting incident was hoax...in front of the Luxor Hotel across the street from the incident and probably two months after the incident. Me, my wife and the group we were with were absolutely horrified at his behavior. He had way to much to drink that evening, but that was no excuse and I actually had to tell the guy to shut it. It was so embarrassing and I am disgusted with the guy to this day.

George has hit the buzzer on the license bit regarding classes etc in order to obtain a gun. Honestly, I never thought of that until I read Georges rationale and you know what he is right! There is nothing wrong with training or education. Moreover there is nothing wrong with passing a test to own a weapon. In fact, I agree with that.

What I don't necessary think will work is a buy back program. We (yes the we) tried it in Haiti during the 90's and what a failure that was. I understand that was another country, but the result was pitiful. But you know what, its a better idea than any of the ideas that are NOT being floated around. B-back idea here...what if there was a "no questions asked" buy back program. That might motivate people to bring in unwanted firearms in their house or illegal ones or those who need the money to exchange arms for cash.

Im not to keen on the drum magazines for sale to the public. I don't find any purpose in them except carnage or maybe a cool selfie pic to show you got it. But currently they are legal to buy, so what can I do? Restrictions or ban of those sales come from the top not from me. Hence, legislation. I believe bump stocks are now banned and frankly I did not even know they existed until after the Las Vegas shooting.

Its a mess.

John from Texas

 

[tdubel]

To be honest I wouldn't know where to start, so just not going to bother.

For the record though, I'm a serving NZ police officer and worked the frontline most of my career. Have been stabbed in the head while on duty and extremely lucky to be here. I deal with victims everyday and a raft of folks needing help and a wide array of criminals.

I know guns and know how much damage they can do first hand.

After the Christchurch Mosque shooting here in NZ, I spent the next 3x months tooled up wearing extra body armour, carrying a Taser, Glock and M4 bushmaster helping to protect religious venues around the clock.

This horrendous incident has had a profound effect on most Kiwi's and our Prime Minister took action accordingly. While I don't necessarily agree with everything our government has done in response. The fact is they responded quickly and with a purpose.

As I said earlier, 'if you don't change anything, nothing will change'

Thanking you.

Maybe had you started with this post instead of a flippant insult to my intelligence, you would have received more respect from me and I will take time to bother because I do not appreciate your tone nor your high hat. I don't give a rats rear if you are the Pope, if you want respect, then try thinking before you type a bs insult.

That said, I am not a willy nilly guns right guy had you bothered to read my earlier posts. I support stronger background checks, I support red flag laws, I support safety classes. I don't support automatic ASSAULT rifles, I support education for people to actually understand what the hell they are talking about when it comes to guns. I support all of these. What I don't support is some idiot politician having the proverbial knee jerk reaction and calling for the ban of guns. That is just idiocy in its dumbest form and anyone who wants that to occur in my opinion smoked too much happy weed too early in the morning. Its not reality. I am an advocate for the level headed majority moderate to put forth ideas that can be embraced and implemented.

So again, I stand by all of my posts as they are about as black and white as I can make it. There is zero gray area with me.

TD

 

[Warrior]

JR,

Don't get me started on hoax's. I ended a relationship with a client because he loudly proclaimed the Las Vegas shooting incident was hoax...in front of the Luxor Hotel across the street from the incident and probably two months after the incident. Me, my wife and the group we were with were absolutely horrified at his behavior. He had way to much to drink that evening, but that was no excuse and I actually had to tell the guy to shut it. It was so embarrassing and I am disgusted with the guy to this day.

George has hit the buzzer on the license bit regarding classes etc in order to obtain a gun. Honestly, I never thought of that until I read Georges rationale and you know what he is right! There is nothing wrong with training or education. Moreover there is nothing wrong with passing a test to own a weapon. In fact, I agree with that.

What I don't necessary think will work is a buy back program. We (yes the we) tried it in Haiti during the 90's and what a failure that was. I understand that was another country, but the result was pitiful. But you know what, its a better idea than any of the ideas that are NOT being floated around. B-back idea here...what if there was a "no questions asked" buy back program. That might motivate people to bring in unwanted firearms in their house or illegal ones or those who need the money to exchange arms for cash.

Im not to keen on the drum magazines for sale to the public. I don't find any purpose in them except carnage or maybe a cool selfie pic to show you got it. But currently they are legal to buy, so what can I do? Restrictions or ban of those sales come from the top not from me. Hence, legislation. I believe bump stocks are now banned and frankly I did not even know they existed until after the Las Vegas shooting.

Its a mess.

John from Texas

Yes, it truly is a mess.

You can't take back what people already have, that's never going to work, that horse left the barn and he's not coming back.

The problem is this should have been addressed a long, long time ago.
My exact dates are fuzzy, but the sniper in the tower in Texas was in the 1960's?
The mass shooting at the restaurant in Texas (Libby's/Lubby's/whatever) was in the late 1970's/early 1980's?
The McDonalds shooting in California was in the 1980's?
The mass shooting at Columbine high school in Colorado was in the late 1980's/early 1990's?
The Virginia tech shootings were in the mid to late 1990's?

Again, the time line is fuzzy...…………..something should have been done a long, long time ago, too many guns sold, too many people have them now, you can't undo what's already been done.

We all know the bottom line here; money fellas, it's all about the Benjamins, politicians lining their pockets, gun companies making **** tons of money, gun dealers selling automatic weapons faster than they can be produced, money, money, money.

The United States cracked down on the airlines because it had nothing to do with money, it had everything to do with God forbid if there were more hijacked planes flown into buildings, political heads would have rolled.

Essentially babies were killed at Sandy Hook and politicians blew smoke up everyones *****, wringing of hands, gnashing of teeth, this is horrible...…………..wait what; another shooting? Ok, let's move on to that one.

We already have a forum member who lost a relative in one of these senseless shootings; to me, that is one forum member/friend/known acquaintance too many...……………………my girlfriend travels quite a bit for work, I exhale whenever she texts me that she's at hotel so and so safe and sound, I'm sure she does the same when I go to a show and text her I got there in one piece...………..I pray to the man upstairs I never get "THE CALL/TEXT/WHATEVER" about any of my loved ones or friends.

I hope for the same for each and every one of you...……….(and Tom, we've discussed this, but I am truly sorry for you and your families loss over a foolish, senseless thing).

 

[Panzer ace]

I don't think any type of ban on assault rifles will lessen the gun violence in our country.

 

[The Military Workshop]

I don't care how you define it, these incidents are either being perpetrated by a criminal or a nutjob, not the gun. Put a bomb, knife, bat, blackjack, etc in the hands of these types of people and you get the same result. It is not the weapon and no amount of "gun control" is going to curb this. Identifying the perp is, so background checks, flag lists, mental health history, it should all be fair game in issuing a license to own a firearm. If a criminal (and that is what these people are) want to do great violence and bodily harm, it is up to our human system to stop them.

"The AR 15 ain't killing anyone, the person pulling the trigger certainly is".

TD

Tom,
You may have noted I "liked" (ie. agreed with) Desertkiwi's response. Since you asked him to explain I will tell you why he was right to say "unbelievable".

You say a nutter or criminal will get the same result with a bomb, knife, bat or blackjack. This defies common sense. Bombs were mentioned earlier in the thread and there is a lot more involved in making and using one than an A15 etc. The other options you mention are hand held and require the culprit to get within arms length to strike. The potential victims have much greater chance to get away or even fight back. Using this type of reasoning to support your views does not help much. It is like you don't get the connection with lax gun control and the mass killings that it causes. But hey, it will still happen if we did not have guns. It is the easy access to guns, designed to kill, with multiple ammo capability that is the cause of this unique USA problem.

John from Texas has put up a list to suggest it happens elsewhere. Some are actually terrorist attacks (Hebdo, Mumbai, Peshawar). After Port Arthur and Christchurch the Prime Ministers took immediate action. Norway was a nutter.

Unfortunately the situation is too far gone in the USA.

I think people's views on this is determined by background. I never knew a household with a gun as a kid as simply not a thing in the UK or places where I lived overseas. When I joined the Royal Hong Kong Police one of my jobs was to conduct arms licence checks. This involved going to owners home to check security etc. It in involved mainly checking spearguns at home and security guards and their shotguns in local banks. Gun ownership was not a thing except for members of shooting clubs which were very tightly controlled. If an AK47 turned up it was being used by ex Army criminals from China during a major robbery.

You are complying with the gun regulations and training your son in proper gun use. That is not an issue for me at all and I might do the same if I grew up in USA. My issue is with you saying there would still be mass killings with the options you mention so therefore should keep the guns.

Perhaps the red flag stuff might work to save some lives. Hopefully it does.

 

[wayne556517]

The issue with guns is even if they wanted to ban certain ones, there is too much grey area.

I'm no gun expert, but where do you draw the line between automatic and semi automatic weapons.

An assault rifle is automatic, but a pistol or a rifle can be semi automatic, so if you for instance banned all automatic weapons, then more mass shootings occur and the weapon of choice is a pistol/someone strapped with half a dozen pistols, what do you do then?

The real problem is something should have been done a long time ago in the way of stricter gun control, you should have to pass a battery of tests to determine if you are of sound mind to own a weapon and very, very thorough background checks should have been put into place, anyone who buys a firearm should be REQUIRED to take shooting lessons and gun safety classes. They don't just hand out drivers licenses, you have to pass a written test to get a learners permit, you are under strict regulations as to when you can and can't drive with it, they you have to pass a drivers test to get a license, I don't hear anyone complaining that they were profiled and targeted over that.

Then the issue becomes "Oh gee, you're infringing on my rights, I have a right to bear arms, all of these tests are unfair, boo ****ing hoo, woe is me"...……………….

Also, it boggles my mind about how unaware people are; for example, that fruitloop that brought an arsenal into the hotel in Vegas; you mean to tell me with all the cameras in place, no one saw anything to tip someone off that that guy was bringing enough weapons into that hotel to start World War III?

Again; if someone suspected something and gave him a hard time, then the fallback is "Oh gee, woe is me, you're singling me out, you're being mean to me, this is not right, what did I do?" and if it turned out he did not have weapons, some ambulance chaser would sue the pants off of the hotel.

After 9/11, the airlines cracked down, you have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get on a plane now, you are strictly regulated as to what you can and can't bring on a plane, yet you can buy a weapon and no one says a word to you, there is something drastically wrong with that.


We live in a world where people are afraid to do or say anything or else it will end up on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and you're a bad person, you're racist, you profile certain people, who needs the headache.

So people mind their own business and the result is mass shootings.

Like my late Father said "If they did nothing after Sandy Hook, they never will"...……………..pops was right, as usual.

Ok fellas, carry on.

350 million guns
Bullet proof backpacks
Woman with ARs in their prams

*** am I reading,George a bolt action rifle will kill a animal if you must go hunting when most foods can be bought in a shop.
A bolt action rifle is enough if you must protect yourself at home.
I cannot fathom the reason why civilians must own all these automatic weapons,well I can he has one so I need one.
Looking in from my quite country town in Western Australia where people get upset if the farmers shoot our pink and grey cockatoos for pinching their crops I just don't get it.

Ive held of commenting cause I/we here in Australia just cant fathom the carnage happening there and its so common like you said we are all becoming immune to it and that is scary in itself.
Having a beer in my RSL yesterday and its just "another shooting in the states" then move on to the next conversation so its no big deal now not "Shocking" even tho it is shocking.
We had our buy back scheme after our mass shooting but on a way way way smaller scale than the US could ever hope to do,well I reckon you could never over there now.
Mate I just cannot for the life of me think of a life when i go to the shop grab my keys,wallet,mobile and then say to the Missus,love you seen my AR15 I left it here some where,that how it seems looking in.

Again not making any judgement here but I just can't believe what I read on here some is so blase.
Hoping to get to Chicago next year where do I pick up my Assault rifle for the duration any one got a spare one lying around...........................I'm guessing yes.

 

[marco55]

I don't think any type of ban on assault rifles will lessen the gun violence in our country.

I'm afraid you are right
Mark

 

[marco55]

350 million guns
Bullet proof backpacks
Woman with ARs in their prams

*** am I reading,George a bolt action rifle will kill a animal if you must go hunting when most foods can be bought in a shop.
A bolt action rifle is enough if you must protect yourself at home.
I cannot fathom the reason why civilians must own all these automatic weapons,well I can he has one so I need one.
Looking in from my quite country town in Western Australia where people get upset if the farmers shoot our pink and grey cockatoos for pinching their crops I just don't get it.

Ive held of commenting cause I/we here in Australia just cant fathom the carnage happening there and its so common like you said we are all becoming immune to it and that is scary in itself.
Having a beer in my RSL yesterday and its just "another shooting in the states" then move on to the next conversation so its no big deal now not "Shocking" even tho it is shocking.
We had our buy back scheme after our mass shooting but on a way way way smaller scale than the US could ever hope to do,well I reckon you could never over there now.
Mate I just cannot for the life of me think of a life when i go to the shop grab my keys,wallet,mobile and then say to the Missus,love you seen my AR15 I left it here some where,that how it seems looking in.

Again not making any judgement here but I just can't believe what I read on here some is so blase.
Hoping to get to Chicago next year where do I pick up my Assault rifle for the duration any one got a spare one lying around...........................I'm guessing yes.

I'm afraid many people here (more than most think) fear that a civil war is heading here and think they can protect themselves and their families.I don't know if it will come in my lifetime (I hope not) but if our first civil war is any indication it will be very very bloody.
Mark.