Shootings In El Paso (2 Viewers)

[marco55]

John from Texas

PS: Marco! Civil War bro? C'mon man![/QUOTE]

I don't think you realize the hatred out there between the left and right.We live normal lives and don't live in their world but that's all they think of.
Mark

 

[Warrior]

John from Texas

PS: Marco! Civil War bro? C'mon man!

I don't think you realize the hatred out there between the left and right.We live normal lives and don't live in their world but that's all they think of.
Mark[/QUOTE]

So does the left wear blue and the right wear grey?

 

[marco55]

I don't think you realize the hatred out there between the left and right.We live normal lives and don't live in their world but that's all they think of.
Mark

So does the left wear blue and the right wear grey?[/QUOTE]

I don't think they've picked their uniform colors yet.Maybe you can suggest something.I think ANTIFA has picked black.
Mark

 

[lancer]

While we're at it, we may as well go after two other big killers, alcohol and tobacco. The deaths and disease caused by these two dwarf the firearms problem. -- Al

 

[tdubel]

Steady on TD, I used the term 'bizarre' to describe your post and its rationale. If you wish to twist it into some other meaning then that's your affair. I also never mentioned anything about banning guns or the like so again that's all on you brother.

As for my tone and high-hat, how about you take a long look at yourself and what you've posted before offering me a serve of you know what.

I too stand by my words, 'if you don't change anything, then nothing will change', that's pure and simply.

Just like you I'm entitled to an opinion and I've expressed it.

Again, maybe take time to read all of my posts and happy to clarify meaning. I don't have a high hat on anything, what you read here is me, just ask anyone who knows me. It is black, white, no gray, I don't make any apologies nor ask for them, what you see is what you get. Same way I have approached everything in my life, I know where I stand and stick with it. My purpose is probably the same as anyone else, not my intention to offend and if someone takes it that way, that's on them. I am not PC, I have strong convictions and beliefs. I respect others and their opinions, always have.


Regarding the specific post, the point to clarify is that there are a helluva lot of bad weapons out there, not that they are equal and as matter of fact a terrorist bomb or chemical attack scares me more than a gunman, maybe only slightly more, but there is a lot of bad crap out there and it is scary. I still am not ever going to blame the weapon. Not reposting all of the things I am for, that is ad nauseum a waste of time, but pretty much a lot of elements of George and Rich is where I stand on regulation and enforcement.

TD

 

[wayne556517]

While we're at it, we may as well go after two other big killers, alcohol and tobacco. The deaths and disease caused by these two dwarf the firearms problem. -- Al

But that's a personnel choice getting gunned down in cold blooded murder isn't so don't see the comparison,agree they are killers but its a choice.

 

[tdubel]

But that's a personnel choice getting gunned down in cold blooded murder isn't so don't see the comparison,agree they are killers but its a choice.

Not speaking for Al, but I think he is trying to say this thread has run its course and his post is an obvious (to me) exhaustion of the topic so might as well attack them too as "everything else but the kitchen sink" has already been discussed.

It is going to continue to be the definition of insanity from all angles and sides, repeating the same thing or writing the same thing over again and each person expecting a different result...…………………


As to the colors - George your innuendo is what our National Press would like people to believe - right equates to gray and that equates to racism and all of the good stuff that comes along with it. What I am saying is that it is the same sad statement time and again.

And in the end, nothing gets done about any of it and it just keeps getting uglier.

TD

 

[Panzer ace]

But that's a personnel choice getting gunned down in cold blooded murder isn't so don't see the comparison,agree they are killers but its a choice.

According to the US Center for Disease Control, on average 41,000 people die from second hand smoke each year in the United States. In that same time frame 36,000 people die from homicides involving firearms.

 

[TomNT]

Steady on TD, I used the term 'bizarre' to describe your post and its rationale. If you wish to twist it into some other meaning then that's your affair. I also never mentioned anything about banning guns or the like so again that's all on you brother.

As for my tone and high-hat, how about you take a long look at yourself and what you've posted before offering me a serve of you know what.

I too stand by my words, 'if you don't change anything, then nothing will change', that's pure and simply.

Just like you I'm entitled to an opinion and I've expressed it.

Again, maybe take time to read all of my posts and happy to clarify meaning. I don't have a high hat on anything, what you read here is me, just ask anyone who knows me. It is black, white, no gray, I don't make any apologies nor ask for them, what you see is what you get. Same way I have approached everything in my life, I know where I stand and stick with it. My purpose is probably the same as anyone else, not my intention to offend and if someone takes it that way, that's on them. I am not PC, I have strong convictions and beliefs. I respect others and their opinions, always have.


Regarding the specific post, the point to clarify is that there are a helluva lot of bad weapons out there, not that they are equal and as matter of fact a terrorist bomb or chemical attack scares me more than a gunman, maybe only slightly more, but there is a lot of bad crap out there and it is scary. I still am not ever going to blame the weapon. Not reposting all of the things I am for, that is ad nauseum a waste of time, but pretty much a lot of elements of George and Rich is where I stand on regulation and enforcement.

TD

I have met you Tom and I know Toddy well and you are both great blokes. If you ever met I’m sure you would get along, perhaps not as mates, but just fine without any fisty cups!

On this subject, well I can understand both points of view as I was once a gun owner with 3 handguns, one pump action shotgun and one bolt action Swedish mauser rifle. Along came that mass murderer Martin Bryant in the Port Arthur 1996 Tasmania Australia massacre and he wiped out 35 innocent lives. My shotgun then became illegal to own and I wasn’t happy to hand it in as I was and still am a law abiding citizen with a firearms licence. I still believe the Govt went overboard with the tightening of the gun laws but I did agree they were lax in some states in Australia and something needed to be done and the laws needed to be tightened. The firearm that was used in the Port Arthur massacre was a Colt AR15 semi-automatic rifle. The rifle was legally obtained from a gun shop in Tasmania. In Australia at that time you could buy high powered semi-automatic rifles in several Australian states. My state, the Northern Territory you could not, it was restricted and not available to the average licensed recreational shooter. In several other states it was also heavily restricted. The tightening of the laws nationwide meant this type of firearm was removed nationwide along with licensing, background checks, storage and a whole raft of other requirements tightened up and/or introduced. I thought the Govt went overboard with restricting pump action shotguns but it happened so what can you do. I ended up selling all my guns even though most are still legal even today. I felt the laws would get tighter and I did not want to go through another gun hand back. The requirements to own a pistol in Australia is also very tight (and expensive) so that’s another reason why I sold the lot.

I get why gun owners such as yourself Tom are upset when gun control is suggested, most of you are law abiding citizens and do the right thing. I also see in the US that it’s different compared to Oz, there are so many more firearms in circulation and even if it was possible to suddenly ban high powered, high capacity semi-automatic weapons, it could potentially take a generation for any sort of dent be made in the numbers that are out there. The amount of firearms in the US also means that the criminal element would always be able to obtain weapons on the black market.

On the other side of the fence, restricting gun ownership or having it extremely hard to obtain a gun, especially a high powered, high capacity semi-automatic firearm, I get that as well as I don’t see the need for these type of firearms in private ownership and households. I believe certain guns should not be available to the general public, only law enforcement, military etc. I still believe in private gun ownership but as you say Tom, controlled, education and everything else you mentioned. I also know from our chats Toddy and you being a Police Officer, the danger of guns in society. If that scumbag that attacked you had a gun and was able to get one easily, there's every chance you wouldn't be here today. I also agree with the views of George and other people on this forum about gun control.

Seriously, having teachers armed to the teeth, mums with rifles in prams is ridiculous! A common sense approach needs to be made where some give and take is made on both sides of politics. We are living in a dangerous and fast changing world with increasing populations, poverty, more mental health issues, more dangerous and sick minded people and the internet which is used to spread hate and influence weak minded people in committing these disgusting crimes. There are so many other things in today’s world that creates these monsters as well.

This unfortunately means that gun owners should accept some restrictions even though for many it seems wrong and extremely unjust. Too many guns and having them easily available means the oxygen thieves can obtain them to do their murderous acts. To many high powered and high capacity guns easily obtained means they can destroy lives in a matter of minutes. Yes, the mentally challenged scumbag murderers can find other means to destroy innocent lives but a gun is a lethal killing machine and having them easily obtainable is crazy to say the least.

I know the US is a different kettle of fish when compared to the rest of the world. It isn’t a utopia of peace and crime free here in Australia, we have huge problems with crime and people frightened even in their own homes. There are home invasions with criminals having guns and the victims being virtually defenceless. Luckily we are not at a critical stage yet with crime and we haven’t had a major gun massacre since Port Arthur. To a certain extent, I think gun control has worked in Australia.

To wrap this up, I think gun control is needed in the US but not at the same level as it was implemented in Australia and more recently in New Zealand. Even though I don’t believe AR15 type weapons should be in households or private ownership, perhaps in the US they can still be allowed so as they are extremely well controlled, enforced, stored, limits on magazine capacity, one only in households, background checks, licences required, everything possible to keep these guns or any guns for that matter out of the hands of theses sick minded people and criminals. Gun control is also only one way to stop this violence. Other measures such as what I mentioned above (mental health), internet control, social media, behaviour patterns, extreme politics, racial hatreds/accusations, political correctness, bad diets (which can have an impact on your mental health), bullying and much, much more should also be addressed.

Tom

 

[OzDigger]

I also had a 6.5 mm Swedish Mauser, found it a bit of a canon as no water buffalo or other biguns where I lived then. Also had a semi auto .22 Ruger which was lots of fun, and a semi auto Breda 12 gauge, even more fun. Plus a Winchester .243, a Bruno .22, a JGA .22 Magnum and a .22 Weihrauch air rifle which was handy for pesky birds etc. All since handed in and most likely now in landfill somewhere. I don't miss them at all, but still have plenty of hunting books and gun books which are less expensive and a lot safer for all concerned.

As for the USA changing it's gun laws, that amendment is a major impediment as it would presently be political suicide for a politician to attempt to water down their gun laws . They have become used to people getting killed in large numbers, maybe another Sandy Hook situation might tip the balance but sadly I doubt it.

 

[hotel3alpha]

You know what’s more deadly than guns? In fact causes up to 30 times more deaths every year than illegal gun play? Obesity, for which sugar is mostly to blame.

In the US between 30k and 40k people die from gun wounds every year. The vast majority of these are suicides. Between 10k and 15k die from violent gun clashes. Most of these are not mass shootings, many involve criminals killing other criminals.

Meanwhile 300,000 people die every year from obesity related deaths. (600,000 from heart disease) Not to mention all the chronic health conditions, like type 2 diabetes, obesity causes. Some say Alzheimer’s is more often seen among the obese, suggesting there may well be a connection.

So if you’re worried about people’s safety, steer them away, but not from public events, but rather from the candy aisle. Sugar is an insidious killer. It’s in almost every processed food item on the grocery shelf, many of which aren’t positioned as sweet or desert.

The number of people killed in true mass shootings is minuscule compared to obesity. I’m not trying to diminish the horror of such attacks. I am saying that we are so accustomed to the rampant obesity, we ignore the behaviors, and even give tacit approval to extremely unhealthy activity, much of which is due to diet. And that kills way more people than guns. The long, lingering unpleasant and tortuous chronic conditions that come from sugar / diet cost society a fortune while ruining the quality of life for many — up until their early death.

So if we’re going to go after guns, shouldn’t we also go after that which causes 10 times the number of deaths? Or are we unwilling to take on the sugar demon - perhaps because the white powder is so pleasing to the senses while the loud sound of a gun is not?

Rut,

You know what you post reminded me of? It reminded me that my fat *** is more likely to die by my own hand versus the hand of another. Thanks for keeping it in perspective...seriously...my Doc tells me to give up sugar every time I see him and he too is sugar hater.

John from Texas

 

[Warrior]

Not speaking for Al, but I think he is trying to say this thread has run its course and his post is an obvious (to me) exhaustion of the topic so might as well attack them too as "everything else but the kitchen sink" has already been discussed.

It is going to continue to be the definition of insanity from all angles and sides, repeating the same thing or writing the same thing over again and each person expecting a different result...…………………


As to the colors - George your innuendo is what our National Press would like people to believe - right equates to gray and that equates to racism and all of the good stuff that comes along with it. What I am saying is that it is the same sad statement time and again.

And in the end, nothing gets done about any of it and it just keeps getting uglier.

TD

I think in general this has been a healthy discussion, also gave me a chance to polish up my stand up act, so a win/win...……………..:wink2:

As far as the colors; I just threw the blue/grey comment out there as he mentioned a civil war, left/right vs north/south, no innuendo on my part.

I guess that attempt at humor did not go over well...………………….can't win em all...……………………...

 

[Warrior]

Rut,

You know what you post reminded me of? It reminded me that my fat *** is more likely to die by my own hand versus the hand of another. Thanks for keeping it in perspective...seriously...my Doc tells me to give up sugar every time I see him and he too is sugar hater.

John from Texas

Yup, me too, sugar is my kryptonite, it's a tough give up, but I am working on it, just ask Tom, I'm down close to 25lb's since March, it's funny too because I thought I was not overweight, but the scale don't lie...…………...we'll see what my next check up shows...…………………..

 

[lancer]

According to the US Center for Disease Control, on average 41,000 people die from second hand smoke each year in the United States. In that same time frame 36,000 people die from homicides involving firearms.

And don't get me started on the murder that drunk drivers do. How is that the choice of the VICTIM? A person who makes the decision to drive drunk is, in my eyes, no better than the killer with a gun. In the case of the drunk driver and second hand smoke, the victims have no more choice than the victims of a random shooter. Lots of problems with no good solutions. -- Al

 

[Louis Badolato]

I have met you Tom and I know Toddy well and you are both great blokes. If you ever met I’m sure you would get along, perhaps not as mates, but just fine without any fisty cups!

On this subject, well I can understand both points of view as I was once a gun owner with 3 handguns, one pump action shotgun and one bolt action Swedish mauser rifle. Along came that mass murderer Martin Bryant in the Port Arthur 1996 Tasmania Australia massacre and he wiped out 35 innocent lives. My shotgun then became illegal to own and I wasn’t happy to hand it in as I was and still am a law abiding citizen with a firearms licence. I still believe the Govt went overboard with the tightening of the gun laws but I did agree they were lax in some states in Australia and something needed to be done and the laws needed to be tightened. The firearm that was used in the Port Arthur massacre was a Colt AR15 semi-automatic rifle. The rifle was legally obtained from a gun shop in Tasmania. In Australia at that time you could buy high powered semi-automatic rifles in several Australian states. My state, the Northern Territory you could not, it was restricted and not available to the average licensed recreational shooter. In several other states it was also heavily restricted. The tightening of the laws nationwide meant this type of firearm was removed nationwide along with licensing, background checks, storage and a whole raft of other requirements tightened up and/or introduced. I thought the Govt went overboard with restricting pump action shotguns but it happened so what can you do. I ended up selling all my guns even though most are still legal even today. I felt the laws would get tighter and I did not want to go through another gun hand back. The requirements to own a pistol in Australia is also very tight (and expensive) so that’s another reason why I sold the lot.

I get why gun owners such as yourself Tom are upset when gun control is suggested, most of you are law abiding citizens and do the right thing. I also see in the US that it’s different compared to Oz, there are so many more firearms in circulation and even if it was possible to suddenly ban high powered, high capacity semi-automatic weapons, it could potentially take a generation for any sort of dent be made in the numbers that are out there. The amount of firearms in the US also means that the criminal element would always be able to obtain weapons on the black market.

On the other side of the fence, restricting gun ownership or having it extremely hard to obtain a gun, especially a high powered, high capacity semi-automatic firearm, I get that as well as I don’t see the need for these type of firearms in private ownership and households. I believe certain guns should not be available to the general public, only law enforcement, military etc. I still believe in private gun ownership but as you say Tom, controlled, education and everything else you mentioned. I also know from our chats Toddy and you being a Police Officer, the danger of guns in society. If that scumbag that attacked you had a gun and was able to get one easily, there's every chance you wouldn't be here today. I also agree with the views of George and other people on this forum about gun control.

Seriously, having teachers armed to the teeth, mums with rifles in prams is ridiculous! A common sense approach needs to be made where some give and take is made on both sides of politics. We are living in a dangerous and fast changing world with increasing populations, poverty, more mental health issues, more dangerous and sick minded people and the internet which is used to spread hate and influence weak minded people in committing these disgusting crimes. There are so many other things in today’s world that creates these monsters as well.

This unfortunately means that gun owners should accept some restrictions even though for many it seems wrong and extremely unjust. Too many guns and having them easily available means the oxygen thieves can obtain them to do their murderous acts. To many high powered and high capacity guns easily obtained means they can destroy lives in a matter of minutes. Yes, the mentally challenged scumbag murderers can find other means to destroy innocent lives but a gun is a lethal killing machine and having them easily obtainable is crazy to say the least.

I know the US is a different kettle of fish when compared to the rest of the world. It isn’t a utopia of peace and crime free here in Australia, we have huge problems with crime and people frightened even in their own homes. There are home invasions with criminals having guns and the victims being virtually defenceless. Luckily we are not at a critical stage yet with crime and we haven’t had a major gun massacre since Port Arthur. To a certain extent, I think gun control has worked in Australia.

To wrap this up, I think gun control is needed in the US but not at the same level as it was implemented in Australia and more recently in New Zealand. Even though I don’t believe AR15 type weapons should be in households or private ownership, perhaps in the US they can still be allowed so as they are extremely well controlled, enforced, stored, limits on magazine capacity, one only in households, background checks, licences required, everything possible to keep these guns or any guns for that matter out of the hands of theses sick minded people and criminals. Gun control is also only one way to stop this violence. Other measures such as what I mentioned above (mental health), internet control, social media, behaviour patterns, extreme politics, racial hatreds/accusations, political correctness, bad diets (which can have an impact on your mental health), bullying and much, much more should also be addressed.

Tom

Extremely well said, Tom. I think better defined and enforced background checks on weapons, banning the sale of high capacity magazines, and limitations of fully automatic weapons and the readily available parts used to convert semi-automatic weapons to fully automatic weapons are all good ideas which would alleviate the problem. While I firmly believe the right to bear arms is the most important right in the bill of rights, as it guarantees the others, I am not adverse to reasonable controls. However, for those of our non-United States brethren, you have to understand, the right to bear arms is not about home defense or hunting, or about being able to fight the U.S. Army or an invading army, its about politicians understanding that if you try to abuse your power and take over the country, as has happened in so many budding democracies throughout the world, most recently Turkey, one of the more than 300,000,000 rifles, in the hands of a society which grows up using them, will end your coup. As was stated in that wonderful comic book movie "V" for Vendetta, "a people should not fear their government, a government should fear its people."

On the other hand I do agree that semi- or fully-automatic assault rifles with high capacity magazines are the single largest contributing factors to these mass shootings. Frankly, while Tom is one of my best friends, and I agree with most of his position on these issues, I respectfully disagree with the old chestnut that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Simply, automatic weapons allow anyone, no matter how physically, mentally, or spiritually infirm, to kill dozens or even hundreds of people without any effort or training beyond pointing the weapon at a crowd and pulling the trigger. Getting these weapons out of the hands of anyone but law enforcement and the military would effectively put an end to mass shootings. That would be extremely difficult in the United States, where so many are already in circulation, but to me, that would be the solution to end these types of mass shootings.

Just my two cents.{sm4}

 

[tdubel]

I think in general this has been a healthy discussion, also gave me a chance to polish up my stand up act, so a win/win...……………..:wink2:

As far as the colors; I just threw the blue/grey comment out there as he mentioned a civil war, left/right vs north/south, no innuendo on my part.

I guess that attempt at humor did not go over well...………………….can't win em all...……………………...

Hi George, sorry, no it went over fine, I meant my comment as I know it was humor on your end, but the sad state we live in that the Press wouldn't treat it as humor. I got it, it was quite appropriate honestly!
Tom

 

[PanzerAce1944]

An update to the state of affairs here in El Paso. Previously i mentioned all of the Walmart stores in town having armed police. Now it
looks like the Target stores here have followed along with this policy as well. A welcome sight and no issues with the stores worrying
about the safety of their customers. The local movie theaters and schools locally already had a policy of having armed police / security
on site for years now, and rightfully so. Sadly...is this the new norm now in society ?

Wayne

 

[Terp152]

An update to the state of affairs here in El Paso. Previously i mentioned all of the Walmart stores in town having armed police. Now it
looks like the Target stores here have followed along with this policy as well. A welcome sight and no issues with the stores worrying
about the safety of their customers. The local movie theaters and schools locally already had a policy of having armed police / security
on site for years now, and rightfully so. Sadly...is this the new norm now in society ?

Wayne

Yeah, I used to see armed guards with automatic weapons at airports and stores overseas. I guess we've caught up. :rolleyes2: Chris

 

[hotel3alpha]

Extremely well said, Tom. I think better defined and enforced background checks on weapons, banning the sale of high capacity magazines, and limitations of fully automatic weapons and the readily available parts used to convert semi-automatic weapons to fully automatic weapons are all good ideas which would alleviate the problem. While I firmly believe the right to bear arms is the most important right in the bill of rights, as it guarantees the others, I am not adverse to reasonable controls. However, for those of our non-United States brethren, you have to understand, the right to bear arms is not about home defense or hunting, or about being able to fight the U.S. Army or an invading army, its about politicians understanding that if you try to abuse your power and take over the country, as has happened in so many budding democracies throughout the world, most recently Turkey, one of the more than 300,000,000 rifles, in the hands of a society which grows up using them, will end your coup. As was stated in that wonderful comic book movie "V" for Vendetta, "a people should not fear their government, a government should fear its people."

On the other hand I do agree that semi- or fully-automatic assault rifles with high capacity magazines are the single largest contributing factors to these mass shootings. Frankly, while Tom is one of my best friends, and I agree with most of his position on these issues, I respectfully disagree with the old chestnut that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Simply, automatic weapons allow anyone, no matter how physically, mentally, or spiritually infirm, to kill dozens or even hundreds of people without any effort or training beyond pointing the weapon at a crowd and pulling the trigger. Getting these weapons out of the hands of anyone but law enforcement and the military would effectively put an end to mass shootings. That would be extremely difficult in the United States, where so many are already in circulation, but to me, that would be the solution to end these types of mass shootings.

Just my two cents.{sm4}

Louis, I was waiting to hear what you had to say on the matter and this is why you are who are kind sir. Well said and eloquently written and I couldn't agree more. I too have had trouble dissecting the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" statement which on its face it a really good argument that I have agreed with in the past. But, I just felt it needed to be espoused on more and your retort on the statement definitely and respectfully disagrees with a good counter. I like it.

John from Texas

 

[hotel3alpha]

I think in general this has been a healthy discussion, also gave me a chance to polish up my stand up act, so a win/win...……………..:wink2:

As far as the colors; I just threw the blue/grey comment out there as he mentioned a civil war, left/right vs north/south, no innuendo on my part.

I guess that attempt at humor did not go over well...………………….can't win em all...……………………...

George,

This has been a GREAT discussion and if this is what those pundits call "we need to have a conversation" then they need to join this forum and they will get more than a convo. This discussion has really, really brought out some great wisdom from opinions from all around the world. Ideas, views, opinions, solutions, sadness...reality.

Further, it also allowed for some of the funniest reading I have ever read. George, again the cousin story (in my books) will go down in forum history...oh winthorpe ...as one of the best descriptions I have ever read.

I am also glad the Wadepats of the world did not shut this thread down because this discussion has been enlightening.

John from Texas